Book Club with Andrea Floyd and Hal Hogue

Podcast Ep. 154: The Book Club: Work on Your Continuous Learning Journey with Andrea Floyd and Hal Hogue

Book Club with Andrea Floyd and Hal Hogue
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Episode Description:

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by two AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd and Hal Hogue.

In this episode, Dan, Andrea, and Hal are talking about the books that have been influential to them and what they learned from them. Continuous learning is a crucial piece of the work at AgileThought, and this is why today, you are invited to this special space called The Book Club.


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Key Takeaways

 
Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Episode Description:

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by two AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd and Hal Hogue.

In this episode, Dan, Andrea, and Hal are talking about the books that have been influential to them and what they learned from them. Continuous learning is a crucial piece of the work at AgileThought, and this is why today, you are invited to this special space called The Book Club.

Key Takeaways

  • Books that bring new ideas to the practice:
    • A fairly common book that you should not take for granted: Turn the Ship Around! A True Story of Turning Followers Into Leaders, written by David Marquet. This book brings a great opportunity to reflect on your own role as an agile coach, it also delivers an important message on leadership and serving others
    • Another book referring to work as a servant leader is Team of Teams: New Rules of Engagement for a Complex World, by General Stanley McChrystal. This book shares crucial practices to be more effective with our teams
    • Phoenix Project: A novel About IT, DevOps, and Helping Your Business Win, written by Gene Kim, Kevin Behr, Kim Spafford (a business fable with some great suggestions to the state of growing software companies to scale)
    • The nature of the challenges has changed over time; businesses are seeing more value in being flexible while responding to change and The Agile of Agile: How Smart Companies Are Transforming the Way Work Gets Done, by Stephen Denning, is a number one must-read book for people experiencing agile transformations, for them to be considered as holistic opportunities for an organization to create and sustain a shift in its cultures
    • Agile Project Management with Scrum, by Ken Schwaber, is a great tool that explains the rules and practices for Scrum
    • The Rational Unified Process: An Introduction, by Philippe Kruchten
    • The Scrum Guide has some interesting references; this guide has been modified and updated over the years, which is the best proof of the constant need for flexibility and adaptation that lies in the core of agile teams
    • Start With Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action, by Simon Sinek. This book is a great one to help teams and leaders recognize the reasons and purposes behind what they are doing.
    • Your Daily Scrum is a YouTube series where you can find (in 10 minutes or less) the answer to a question from the community related to Scrum which is the trigger for an insightful conversation about that topic
    • Ted Lasso on Apple TV brings awesome brings awesome content about leadership and humanity

Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Intro: [00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach, and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann: [00:17]
Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host Dan Neumann. And today I have the pleasure of being joined by two of my AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd, and Hal Hogue. Andrea is a repeat participant in this and Hal is a first timer, so excited to have you both.

Hal Hogue: [00:35] Thank you, Dan. Very excited to be here.

Dan Neumann: [00:37]
Very cool. We’re going to spend some time talking about some of the books that have been influential to us and where we’ve learned from them. I guess it’s possible that we’ll touch on something where you’re like, that was a stinker and I’d never read it again. That’d be kind of fun. But because continuous learning is such an important part of what we do. That’s, that’s why we wanted to touch base on the book club. Leading into that. I also wanted you guys to maybe share a little bit about how you got to AgileThought in the first place. So let’s we’ll start with let’s start with Andrea here.

Andrea Floyd: [01:11] Great. Well, Dan, my journey was a relatively expeditious one. I knew of AgileThought because of my work doing agile at various firms here in the Tampa bay area. And you always heard about the wonderful people who came from AgileThought and the differences they made at the organizations. So they’ve been part of my world for a while attended some of the local agile meetups where AgileThought is very front and center. And then eventually as I moved into a journey where I was an independent agile coach, I started going up for work with or against agile thought and just saw that there might be some opportunity to maybe join AgileThought and become part of that wonderful organization. So it was a pretty direct path. And I’m thrilled to be here.

Dan Neumann: [02:05] We’re happy to have you here. So that’s exciting. And Hal, how about you? You are not in the Tampa area, so that’s definitely not how you got here.

Hal Hogue: [02:14]
No, I am not in Tampa. I am in the bustling metropolis of Springfield, Missouri, and I’ve been with AgileThought for, I believe three whole weeks. So not too long. Before that I was working as an agile coach with Expedia and I had I had a team of, of agile coaches and we like to collaborate together on things. And one day one of my colleagues reached out and said, Hey, I was thinking about listening to an episode of this podcast. Would anyone like to listen to it as well? And we can have a conversation about it afterward. And I jumped on that because I always for opportunities to learn new things from new people. And it turns out the podcasting question was this podcast episode with Dan and I listened to it, thought it was very insightful. And after that, I, I just kind of became a regular listener and I absorbed as much information as I could from the discussions on this podcast. And then one episode, Dan, I believe closed out the podcast by asking if, if anyone is interested in maybe pursuing a career with AgileThought and I thought to myself, okay, yeah, maybe, maybe I will pursue this because it would be incredible to work more closely with the voices and the people that I’ve been listening to all this time. And I think it would really help with my continuous improvement journey. So yeah, I pursued it and the rest is history and honestly I’m, I’m, I’m humbled and, and just thrilled to actually be on this podcast that I was a long time listener of for so long. So thank you. Thank you for the opportunity.

Dan Neumann: [04:16] Thanks for listening. And so you were a listener, which you’re investing in yourself as a continuous learner, and of course, when we’re looking for talent and we’re on a perpetual search for talent it’s really great to have continuous learners come in and I love that you came in and just, you know, kind of pulling open the curtain a little bit. You looked at our Kanban board that we use for some of our internal stuff like, Hey, this is stale and you’re violating your WIP limits. Yes we are. Thank you. Thank you for engaging. And let’s fix that. So great to have you on, great to have you engaged and, and it’s you know, we’re always looking for not just people to come in and do what we do, but to help improve what we do. And I’m sorry, Andrea, our internet lag, I stomped right on you.

Andrea Floyd: [05:05] Great wrap up around having how wonderful it is to have him as part of our, our organization. But I was curious, Dan, how did you become an AgileThinker?

Dan Neumann: [05:16] Oh, sure. Well, I think go to the catalytic event for me was I was at a company that was closing our south bend office. I live in Indiana and my opportunity was to go to New York city or become unemployed. And for a guy who’s mostly grown up in the Midwest, relocating to New York city, as lovely as it is. It wasn’t in the cards for us at the time. And I started looking for other agile minded folks in the Northern Indiana area and ended up coming across Eric Landes and long story short, he and I went to a place together and then plotted our escape from there together. And he escaped to AgileThought. And about four years later, I think I finally got smart and put out feelers again and ended up coming to AgileThought because of Eric Landes and some of the, the catalytic events that we had up here. So I had subcontracted through agile thought before hiring on. So I knew the culture. I knew what I was getting into. I liked it when it was time to find a permanent home. And here we are five and a half years later, roughly at this point. So that’s awesome. And I get to work with all the crew and they bring in other ideas and occasionally I have a smart idea to share too, and or something I picked up. And so it’s, it’s just a great, I called it a tribe is what I was looking for when I hired in. And so that’s been wonderful. One of the things that I find interesting as we go through is sometimes there are books that kind of we’ve read or have, have brought new ideas to the practice. Sometimes lots of people have covered them. Sometimes it’s one person’s stumbled upon a golden nugget and, and brought that book in to share it. And let’s talk about what maybe some of the books are that you guys have have found value from brought insights from, and let’s pull on that and Hal you, I think were the guy who said, Hey, let’s talk about this topic. So why don’t you lead us off on it?

Hal Hogue: [07:18] Yeah, I’d be happy to, and before I, before I get into a specific book, I just wanted to mention that I I’ve always loved the end of the podcast where you ask the guests to share what they’ve been doing as part of their continuous learning journey. And they will usually share some, a book or a piece of information that they’ve been consuming and why it’s valuable. And that as a listener has been very valuable to me because it kind of helps focus me in, on areas that I might want to pursue and, and just learn more valuable things from different sources. So that was kind of why I suggested this, this book club idea just to get more of that cause I, I really think it’s valuable. So as for, I guess the first book that I will talk about, it’s probably a fairly common book that a lot of people have read, but I’ve learned to not take that for granted because the history of, of this book for me is I was at a virtual agile meetup a few years ago. And there was a discussion on leadership. And the question came up of what is the most valuable book on leadership that you’ve read. And almost everybody answered with turn the ship around by David Marquette. And I was sitting here thinking, wow, turn the ship around. What is, what is that? That sounds interesting. I’ve never heard of that book. So after the meetup, I started digging into it and it resonated very quickly. And it got me to think about past experiences and observations that I had had of my own behavior as an agile coach or a Scrum Master, as well as the behavior of others. And in terms of, of leadership and helping others or serving others. So for those of you want to wear, turn the ship around is a bit of a story about the commander of a submarine and his and his crew, but he was their, he was their leader and this crew was feeling very disempowered. They weren’t, they weren’t really motivated if things were, things were really not going well. So instead of embracing kind of the traditional command and control approach, this commander decided to do something a little bit different. He decided to kind of embrace more of a leader leader philosophy instead of a leader follower philosophy. So what he wanted to do was kind of give more control to the people doing the work instead of taking the control and his journey through this was very interesting because he started by simply trying to give the control and he did that, and that didn’t work very well because the people who are suddenly in control, weren’t really able to handle that. They didn’t have the, the, the mindset and the, and the tools and the knowledge to really take that and run with it and be successful. So the captain realized this and he, he discovered that you needed a couple of key things to really help with, with that control and be able to divest that control. And that’s making sure that they have competence and making sure that they have clarity. So, you know, being able to do the job is very important if you’re going to be in control of how you accomplish something. And also having clarity, understanding the big picture, understanding the why, that also is, is critical. And I know this is a book about submarines and captains and all that, but really this can be translated to a, any environment where you are in some sort of leadership position and you are working with a group of individuals moving toward a common goal. And it just, it made me think about myself as well as a, as an agile coach, as a scrum master. I, I remember early in my career, I was very hesitant to give control to a team. I remember one day I was in a sprint planning session with my team and they were, they were testing out a story. And as soon as they finished testing out that story, they stopped, they all turned around and they looked at me and it was like, they were asking me for permission and guidance to continue on. And all of a sudden I realized, especially after reading this book, you know, I have not, I have not given them this environment where they can control what they’re doing. They kind of do have that competency and clarity, but they don’t have the control. So I had a little mini epiphany there and, and started embracing this mindset of, of leader leader and, and giving them control and ensuring that they have the competence and clarity to, to do their work their own way. So it was a, it was a very valuable book for me. It helped me look back on previous experiences and learn even more from, from those and very good book.

Dan Neumann: [13:27] Awesome. And Andrea, I don’t know, I believe this has been one that you’ve read as well, correct?

Andrea Floyd: [13:34] Absolutely. I think it’s a wonderful book I will share from my perspective. It was a bit of a hard read for me. It was a subject, a setting that didn’t really resonate with me and engage me. I think it was the military aspects. So for me, it was a little bit of a harder read. I think I remember putting it, picking it up and putting it down and and trudging, Ooh, I use that word trudging through it. I, I love the message and a similar book to, to this one, which I also think it’s a lot of respect for talking about being a servant leader. You know, as an agilist is general Stanley Crystals, a book team of teams, which it too is military, you know, and it uses the analogies of working with forces and how to learn from the people who are actually boots on the ground, you know, working the problems and, and moving forward. So I think it’s also a great book to help reinforce some of those core principles and practices that help us be more effective with our teams, but maybe both of them are a little you know, geared for maybe the male audience sometimes then myself. So I’ll toss that one that sort of hit home and I felt very comfortable reading and relating to was the, the very popular the Phoenix project. And I think many, many of us in our early days of our journey probably picked it up. And it was one of those things that sang to me in terms of the setting and the way that it told the story. And it was a story was set in something that felt fairly familiar to me. I think if you’ve read the book, you know, that you’re seeking out your Brent, those people who are the heroes of the companies, and tend to be the impediment that you end up having to work around because there is consequences of creating heroes. So that was a book that has voted well for me and using as a way to connect with and talk to people I’m on agile journeys with, to help them maybe get an introduction to some of the different practices that might be value added, of course, which a book without a follow-up sharing, the DevOps handbook continued the story. And I liked that. I liked the way that they, you know, had that relationship to one, another

Dan Neumann: [16:15] I resonated I liked David Marquez’s book. I enjoyed team of teams when I referenced team of teams, when doing training, I try to stay away from the US military did this because not everybody in the room’s going to be terribly excited about the US military doing stuff. Right. And so I tried to stick with more the Boeing examples, the Ford examples and the principles, as opposed to here’s specifically how the U S military, you know, executed their operations. Cause it’s usually not good to be on the other end of those. So yeah, totally there. And then Phoenix project, you mentioned that loved that one and reminded me that the goal by gold rat was one of those classic books. It was a production environment, not a DevOps it thing, but that one also had valuable lean principles in it. And then I think Phoenix project was the next business. What did they call them? Business fables? And then I got tired of the genre. I’m like enough already, like, okay, this, like there was the goal, there was the Phoenix project, but I’m not going to buy another book. That’s a business fable, but that’s just, Dan’s personal hangup about something getting overplayed.

Hal Hogue: [17:28] I think I just like a good story. That starts in a kind of a dark place. There’s a, there’s a serious issue that needs to be addressed. And then there are progressive steps to kind of improve on that and try new things. And with, with, with turn the ship around, it’s definitely good point about, you know, the US military thing I tend to, I realized while we were talking about this, that I never really thought about it in terms of, of the, of the military. I think I thought of it in terms of a very command and control organization and the deficiencies that can come from that and, and a person’s story of kind of pushing against that and, and having the courage to try something different, even though it was a, it was a big risk. So I think that’s the, that’s the value I get out of, out of that story. It’s just, it’s, it’s somebody really trying to go against the grain in order to do something good and, and improve and improve on something and, and help others.

Andrea Floyd: [18:45] Yeah. I liked that. I like that the opportunity to find the courage. To do something that doesn’t feel comfortable. And I think it’s an excellent point that both of those books are well team of teams and turn the ship around are from a military, which is all about command and control. And yet we’re getting the servant leader mentalities or leadership behavior scenario-based books for people who that’s, how they operate. That is their go-to. So it is remarkable that they were courageous enough to look at learnings.

Dan Neumann: [19:22] Yeah, Andrea, what you you have age of agile on your list. I’m going to kind of introduce that just really briefly, because one of the things that’s changed both in, you know, kind of, again, the military thing, as well as in business is the nature of the challenge has changed. So for a long time, how, how big is the factory? How lean can you make at how much waste you need? Like how, how fast can you pound out widgets? And that’s, that’s been true with business and now businesses are seeing a lot more value from being nimble and responding to change. And, and that I think is, is maybe why you have age of agile by Steve Denning. You want to talk about why that one was, was valuable to you.

Andrea Floyd: [20:01]
Yes, it definitely one of my top reads and one that I’ll often encourage clients to pick up who are thinking about agile journeys or transformations, and really helps to share that it is a holistic opportunity. It’s not just about teams or even technology focused. Business agility is what relevant today. And looking at it from an organizational standpoint and understanding of the relationship from the enterprise to the individual teams and how they have to be formulate the symbiotic relationship to create an environment where a shift can happen, but also equally important be sustained. And so, more and more I know with clients, I spend more time talking about culture and mindset and the importance of how leaders show up when they’re looking to do something different, to working in a new way, their critical role in creating the catalyst, but also supporting and enabling and creating an environment where this innovative, new way of thinking can happen is essential to getting you, to start your journey, sustain your journey and continue that journey. And there’s so many wonderful examples, maybe painful for some organizations where they didn’t see it as a holistic business opportunity, or you have about business agility. So you think of the traditional blockbuster versus Netflix, and it’s not just about one spot in your organization in order to really have the impact agile should be applied across the organization. So I love age of agile for that. And I know some people may struggle with some of the acronyms and some of the details in it, but again, if you, if you look past that or you, you look at that as an opportunity to enrich your conversation, it’s definitely something that’s worth spending the time to read and understand.

Hal Hogue: [22:14] Yeah, I, and I, I love the, the call-out of organizational agility and the fact that teams aren’t agile organizations are agile, you know, the old saying, and it’s, it’s, it’s so important to focus on that cultural aspect and, and, and make sure that the organization understands and embraces what agility really means at its core, the principles and the values that guide it and, and just embody those to, to the best of their ability and continue to improve.

Dan Neumann: [22:51] That’s awesome. As I look at kind of the backlog, if you will, of books, we wanted to touch on, and I look at our velocity relative to our time box. I know we’re not going to get through all of this. Right. I know we’re not going to go through all the, all the different items. I wanted to share one, maybe that, that I read and then recently picked up again and went, oh my God, like what happened? And it was, it was this agile project management with Scrum book by Schweiber. And I read it in 2006 ish, give or take 2006 or 2007, because the organization said, we’re going agile with Scrum. We’re going to do two weeks sprints, like, go like that was our training. I’m like, I better learn something pretty quick, cause I’m going to be a Scrum Master. And I literally have no idea what Scrum is. So I read, I read through it. It was mixed with some advice about Scrum and some, some scenarios from different companies, not quite a fable, but it had a storyline that went through it. If I recall. And then I picked it up recently and I looked at it, I’m like, oh, let’s talk about like chickens and pigs. And it’s, it’s like all the stuff that we’ve moved past hopefully we’ve moved past as an agile community and in Scrum teams. So super impactful for me when I got started, it was the thing that was some of my training before I went to a certified Scrum Master course, a couple, three years later. But I thought that was an interesting one. That was super valuable then. And, and I don’t know if it aged terribly well, but valuable for me, nonetheless. Have you guys had anything like that in your past?

Hal Hogue: [24:33] I don’t think I have any well, I’m sure I have specifics, but I just find it fascinating how, how we grow in these journeys and how something we have read in 2006 at the time, it was very valuable like Dan, for you, it was very valuable and there are probably things we’re reading right now that we feel are very valuable and are helping us, but 10 years down the road, you know, come 2030. Is that going to be the case? Will we have, will we have learned new things will we have had new experiences and adapted and will we, will we kind of look back on the things that we’ve read now, you know, in 10 years time and kind of have the same thoughts? Like, is it, are we going to have more agile project management with Scrum books that we love right now, but we kind of learn and, and move forward, move, move past a bit, but still find them valuable at the time. So it’s just, it’s fascinating. The, the journey there I don’t know, Andrea, if you had any specific ones?

Andrea Floyd: [25:47] Yeah. I’ll share. I think I looked for that, that catalyst, you know, the book that you read, is it the book that creates inspiration or a catalyst for a new way of thinking? Right. So I’ll start with one that, you know, it will date me, but it was one of my first books around a new way of working and it was around iterative development and it was the rash unified process, a book by Felipe Curchin. And I read it when I was working in aviation firm and we were doing lean six Sigma, you know, and now we’re moving into, how do you apply those lean principles in software development? Again, I was in the aviation industry. We have a lot of risk-based compliance responsibilities. So if anybody knows anything about the rational unified process, which I think started out of IBM, it was very, my eyes just got big you can’t artifact in a process or methodology had, right. But the intention, and again, I’m fan we’re looking for intention. The intention was around incremental delivery of software and rational unified process or rough looks to work on the highest risk, most complex items first, rather than saving them for the end. And it has a very specific approach that it uses to help deliver that iterative solution so that you learn as you go and you can inspect and adapt. They didn’t call it that, but that’s the essence of what they were doing. So I think when I think about a book that I was reading and I had the opportunity to meet the author and they came to our company and help us understand the practices behind rep and how it would help us with our software development. It was that catalyst on the value of that iterative development. And then how did that kickstart my agile journey?

Dan Neumann: [27:46] That’s super cool.

Hal Hogue: [27:48] Here’s a, here’s another book from a long time ago that might not have aged super well. It’s a little book called the Scrum Guide, 2010. It had some interesting references in it. It did talk about chickens and pigs. It did talk about backlog grooming, I believe, and, and probably some, some other things, but in this case, this was a living document of sorts. And over the years, it was inspected and adapted and went through several versions in particular in 2020, just last year, there was a pretty sizeable update to the Scrum Guide. It, it shifted a lot of, of wording, you know, away from development teams, to, you know, a developer accountability to make it, make it a little clearer that you have one Scrum team. Change, you know, roles to accountabilities and that’s still happening. I’m sure there will be more versions of the, of the Scrum guy posted in the future. It will continue to be updated. And, and that’s just, that is really capturing the, the core of agility. I think having these things be living documents and, and accepting the fact that it’s never going to be perfect. It’s we’re never going to take the Scrum guide and chisel it into a stone tablet and then, and post it out somewhere where it will never need to be changed again. It’s always going to be updated.

Dan Neumann: [29:26]
That’s awesome. So I’m thinking of things that are getting updated. Some of the books now we’ve talked about, have been things on your continuous learning journey in the past. Obviously you may be going back still and referring to them over time. Maybe you could share what kind of has you interested now, whether it’s a long form book or short form article or you know, YouTube stream, whatever, what kind of is on your learning journey right now? I want to start with Andrea.

Andrea Floyd: [29:53] Great. Well, I can’t believe I haven’t read it. It’s on the top of my list and there’s already one following shortly behind this one is Simon Sinek. Start with why. I used the word intention earlier as I was talking. And I’m a fan of looking at the why behind what we do, whether it’s agile practices or Scrum practices understanding the why is so essential. And I’m also a fan of using five why’s approach to help really help teams and leaders understand. Sometimes the first thing you think is the reason behind why something’s happening. It often isn’t and the, the easy approach of asking why five times often gets you closer to what really is creating the opportunity. So the book right behind start with why would be his book on called find your why? So talking waitlist.

Dan Neumann: [30:51] Perfect. Thank you. Hal, what about you?

Hal Hogue: [30:55] Well, that’s high on my list as well. Start with why it’s been on my list for awhile. So it might move up a bit, but I guess we’ve talked a lot about books, so maybe I’ll try to take a slightly different, different approach. I’m going to go with a YouTube series that I’ve been following for a while. Now, it’s called your daily Scrum. It’s hosted by a, I believe friend of the show, Ryan Ripley and, and Todd Miller, Professional Scrum Trainers. And every day they spend 10 minutes or less addressing a question from the community, something related to Scrum, and they have such insightful conversations about the topic. And you, you almost always come out learning something something that you could take away to your teams. It’s very, very practical very insightful. So I highly recommend that series. Like I said, it’s less than 10 minutes a day, so it’s a, it’s a quick watch. It’s a, it can be a good way to start the day and a great way to learn.

Dan Neumann: [32:12] That’s cool. And yeah, Brian has collaborated with AgileThought in the past, I saw he was doing the daily Scrum and I’m like, how do you produce that thing every day? And, and he was nice and transparent with it and said, you better not be starting a daily daily stream. And so, yeah, no. Right. And it’s I love the content they put out there too. Very cool. For me, I guess, I think does Ted Lasso count? I’m a little sad. I’ve been through two episodes. It but it’s, it’s interesting. You got to look a few aha moments and for our colleague Quincy, that’s something that’s on apple TV. Since, since he’s a, a, a, a big Android guy. We, we rib him a little bit for being not up with all the apple stuff, but definitely some, some content there.

Hal Hogue: [32:59] I’ve got, I’ve got $5. I can give $5 to apple on Quincy’s behalf and he can watch the entirety of season one of Ted Lasso.

Dan Neumann: [33:06]
Yeah, I love it. We’ll set up a go-fund to me to get Quincy, apple TV,

Hal Hogue: [33:11] Huge fan of Ted Lasso. The love that recommendation, I guess this is an audio podcast. You can’t see the poster behind me, but the be curious, not judgmental love that, love that quote, try to embody that every day. It’s not always easy, but it’s, if you keep that in mind, then it’s very helpful.

Dan Neumann: [33:31] I love that on our marketing backlog, actually, we are capturing video for the podcast now, so folks can stay tuned. We don’t, we don’t, we don’t have a drop dead. Did I not tell you that when we oversight? Nope. So we it’s on the backlog. And at some point we should be able to release some of that maybe in smaller form than, than the full episode, maybe full episodes. I don’t know. We’ll do something we’ll inspect and adapt.

Hal Hogue: [33:57] Well, let me sit up straight and adjust my posture and fix my hair a little bit.

Dan Neumann: [34:02] Yup. Yup. Well, Andrea, how I really want to appreciate you sharing both about your journeys to agile thought what you’ve learned already, what you’re hoping to learn next, and thanks for, thanks for joining the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast.

Andrea Floyd: [34:17] Thanks so much for having us.

Hal Hogue: [34:20] Yes, Dan, thank you so much. This was, this was a great time.

Dan Neumann: [34:24] Thank you.

Outro: [34:27] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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