Christmas Eve: Leading to Agile Change

Podcast Ep. 163: Christmas Eve: A Time for Awareness and Desire, Leading to Agile Change with Adam Ulery

Christmas Eve: Leading to Agile Change
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Episode Description:

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by Adam Ulery to accompany you on Christmas Eve in an agile way. This time of the year is for reflection, to be grateful about the blessing of the year as well as a time to think about what wants to be changed and improved.

This episode is the first of two where Adam and Dan talk about organizational change management and present the steps involved in the ADKAR Method: Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, and Reinforcement as they dive deep into the first two steps: Awareness and Desire.


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Key Takeaways

  • Annual goals or New Year’s resolutions?
    • Time for reflection and forward planning
    • New Year’s resolutions tend to be pleading kinds of decisions and they tend to be abandoned during the year
  • Organizational Change Management
    • Real change management is needed to achieve effective change
    • ADKAR Method: Awareness, Desire, Knowledge, Ability, and Reinforcement
  • Waterfall Project Management
    • If you don’t understand the change or the need for it, you won’t support it
    • What is the nature of the change?
    • People really need to understand why the change is necessary (Awareness)
    • Top leadership needs to communicate how the change is aligned with the direction and the strategy of the company
  • What are some ways of building Awareness?
    • there needs to be Awareness of the nature of the change
    • Marketing people can be in charge of the communication of the change as well as HR
    • In-person events are important to communicate change
  • Awareness building even before there is a brand to build
    • One-on-one conversations are useful to anticipate the change coming
    • Awareness is the key first step (and it’s surprising how often this step is skipped).
  • Desire: Why should I change the tasks that I do on an everyday basis?
    • Dan tells a professional experience about change, awareness, and desire
    • Long feedback loops are obstacles and cause struggle; shortening them provides tremendous value
    • How can you build desire for people “in the middle”? Help them think about their personal goals, ambitions, and aspirations and explain some of the benefits involved in the upcoming change

 
Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Intro: [00:03] Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach, and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann: [00:17] Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host Dan Neumann. And today I’m joined by friend and colleague here at AgileThought, Adam Ulery. How are you doing, Adam?

Adam Ulery: [00:28] Hey, I’m doing awesome, Dan. Thanks for having me back on the show.

Dan Neumann: [00:32]
Happy to. Happy to, Hey, this episode is going out on Christmas Eve. This one is gonna go out on Christmas Eve so hopefully everybody’s getting ready for a nice Christmas doing, doing whatever they do, whether it’s religious things or family things, or enjoying some quiet time, not org things. So hopefully hopefully that’s good. I dunno. You got plans?

Adam Ulery: [00:57] Merry Christmas, everybody. Yeah, we do. We’re we’re going to Italy. So actually when this hits I’ll be in Venice.

Dan Neumann: [01:06]
That’s awesome. I should be on a flight back from Las Vegas, so we’ll see richer or poorer. I’m not sure.

Adam Ulery: [01:15] Good Luck.

Dan Neumann: [01:16]
Thank you. Thank you. I’ll do my part the end of the year. You know, this is an episode that’ll go out on Christmas Eve, like I mentioned, and then the next one will be coming out on new year’s Eve. And for me, and for a lot of people based on how many talk about new year’s resolutions, it’s the time for reflection and, you know, figuring out areas that people might wanna change in their life going forward. Are you a are you a new year’s resolutions can of guy?

Adam Ulery: [01:44] I’m not Dan? I, I don’t do new year’s resolutions. I do annual goals. So I do during the first of the year, during the end of the year, I do a lot of reflection and then forward planning. And and then I’ll be resetting goals this year.

Dan Neumann: [02:04]
I love it. That’s not a surprise from what I know about you. That is not a total surprise. And they do match the calendar year though.

Adam Ulery: [02:10]
Yeah, actually, yeah, wait, well, I’ve got, I’ve got long term goals, like annual goals and those align to my life’s mission or my longer term plan. And then I’ve got short term goals and those get reset more often more like quarterly. They align to the long term stuff.

Dan Neumann: [02:30] I would expect nothing less from you.

Adam Ulery: [02:37] New year’s resolution is kind of fun, but I don’t.

Dan Neumann: [02:40] Really. Yeah. I figured, well, you know, in new year’s resolution I’m gonna, you know, lose 10 pounds next year. I’m going to mm-hmm stop putting things on credit cards. I’m going to whatever they, they tend to be fleeting types of decisions. I did a podcast a year or two ago, I think on new year’s Eve and shared the success rate. It’s not front of mind, but the success rate is very low. Most resolutions are abandoned within a very short period of time. And I believe part of that is because it’s not a very effective change management process, which will be the theme of what we’re going to talk about on this episode, as well as the one on new year’s Eve. It’ll be a, a two-parter if you will on change. So what are your thoughts on why they’re not so sticky?

Adam Ulery: [03:26] Yeah, I th I think that contributes to it. There’s not a lot of intentionality there. I think a lot of it is more sort of off the cuff and, oh, I gotta come up with something and I’m not really committed to this, or I haven’t thought through this deeply, and I’m not prepared to take action on that kind of thing. Right. Yeah. It’s last minute, almost in, in a lot of cases, I think.

Dan Neumann: [03:50]
Think for sure. And imagine if you will, an organization is like, you know, we better get us some agile, like we wanna go do agile, we wanna go be agile. We wanna transform agile. I’m not getting hung up on the term, that precedes agile, but it’s like, man, we gotta get agile. And that, to me, I think sounds a lot like a new year’s resolution of sort from an organizational change standpoint. Kind of shallow impulsive.

Adam Ulery: [04:23]
Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And I’m looking forward to us diving into a lot of the implications of that as such a big change. I mean that, you know, may not on the surface sound like it’s as deep of a change as it is, but something like that, an organization change it’s wide sweeping and real change management is needed to effectively get that outcome you’re after.

Dan Neumann: [04:50] Yeah. Yeah. And so that, that’s where we’re gonna dive next. One of the fairly popular methods of organizational change management is called ADKAR. So awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and then reinforcement, and the people that have fostered that based on some research, they’ll say, oh, it’s, it’s a step by step by step by step process. Which to me feels a little I’m, I’m trying to, as a personal growth, avoid the phrase waterfall, but it sounds like a waterfall change management process. You do step 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And, and we’ll talk about that as we get in a little deeper maybe where we have a little different perspectives on that, but yes, organizational change management. Doesn’t just start with a declaration vaguely that we’re gonna go do the new thing. What are some of the downsides you’ve seen on that?

Adam Ulery: [05:45] Yeah. well, I think it is approaching in that way. You, you just said we, we shouldn’t approach it in, you know, we see that a lot of times this particular change a client says we want to do agile and they, they declare it and then jump right in with starting to teach people or, you know, hire some training or, you know, bring a consultant in, that kind of thing. And they, they’ve just leapfrogged two major steps in mm-hmm, change management in the adkar framework in particular. And I, I think that’s one of the biggest mistakes that I see when I go into an organization is they’ve, they’ve just jumped two very important phases or, you know, these, these steps you need to take and, and dove right into the middle, which starts to cause them a lot of problems. And, and I know we’re gonna unpack that here in a minute.

Dan Neumann: [06:48]
Yeah, for sure. Some of the problems I see as a former developer, if I’m a developer and somebody’s all of a sudden told me I need to do this Scrum thing and I need to release software and I’m a cross-functional team member I’m like yet, no, I, what, what I was doing was fine, you know? Right. I built my software, I handed it off. Somebody else told me if it was good, I fixed whatever problems they found. We shipped to the customer later, somebody else took care of all that. I got to sit there in my cube and I got to do my thing uninterrupted, you know? And, and now there’s all this, wait, I gotta go to a meeting every day, wait, I gotta, you know, talk to my stakeholders in the business and I gotta help the quality people. What, yeah. Doesn’t make any sense to me.

Adam Ulery: [07:36] It it’s like why? I mean, even, and talking about it, like this, putting ourselves in their shoes, I’m thinking, why, why, why do I need to do all this? I think that’s the point, right?

Dan Neumann: [07:46] My problems are usually the requirements Stu. And if you just get the analysts to talk to the customer and get what they really want down on paper better, and then you hand me that I’ll build that. So just go fix that. Like, don’t make me, don’t make me have a daily meeting cuz the analyst can’t do their job. Right. That’s that’s the inner monologue that I hear. And, and I led some of those postmortems. We called back in the waterfall day. Oh, the project was terrible. Mm-Hmm We need better requirements. Always, that was my awareness. I used the filter of waterfall should work to apply to my personal and our project change management when I was doing waterfall project management.

Adam Ulery: [08:32]
Yeah. And so the problem there is they don’t understand the need for the change, right? They, they don’t see a need or understand what the need is and that is gonna cause them to not be on board with the change or, you know, not commit to supporting the change. It’s that awareness.

Dan Neumann: [09:00] For sure. One of the phrases that jumped out to me around the awareness is what’s the nature of the change. In my first decade of work, the nature of the change was we need to do better waterfall things. Or maybe we looked at RUP for a while, the rational unified process and said, okay, that, that wave isn’t, it’s not a gate. It’s a little wavy line that decreases over time. Right? The requirements are gonna change a lot, but the nature of the change was always a much more rigorous process grounded in the beliefs of the waterfall way.

Adam Ulery: [09:34] Yeah. I, I think the people really need to understand why the change is necessary and why it needs to be done now. I also think they need to understand the risk of not changing the, these, these things are all part of this first piece, the awareness piece that are really important and if we’re not communicating these things effectively, and if everybody involved in the change doesn’t fully understand it, then they’re just not able to move forward with supporting it.

Dan Neumann: [10:10] And from a high level. So I believe Nokia published an article and it was a burning platform email, if I remember right. And I’d have to go back and Google that if I’m MIS attributing it. But I don’t think I have, I thought it was a public email to the CEO or a public post. We are on a burning platform. We must change how we do things, or we will cease being relevant or existing in the marketplace. It was it wasn’t like, well, we’re gonna go try doing some sprints or some Scrum, and we’re gonna see if that works. It was like, no, we’re on an oil rig in the north Pacific it’s on fire. We’re getting in the water and it’s gonna, it’s gonna hurt and it’s gonna be cold and it’s gonna be awkward, but you can’t stay here. This platform’s literally on fire.

Adam Ulery: [10:59] Yeah, no, that, that’s a great example of raising the awareness, communicating the awareness, helping everybody understand the, the reason the change is needed, why it’s needed right now. And something really good in there that that is a part of effectively sharing this awareness is top leadership, communicating how this aligns to the future direction of the company, right? How’s this aligned to the strategy of the company. Why is this change important? And it’s fully aligned. All of that. And, and they have to, I mean, that’s, that’s gutsy, right? You have to be transparent and that can be scary, especially for top level folks to share that kind of thing and to say, Hey, our platform is burning that can be scary, but it it’s so powerful. And it has the effect of helping people understand why this is so important and getting them on board.

Dan Neumann: [12:03] Yeah. Now, Adam, are you suggesting that the C-suite types of folks are talking about sprints and Scrums and Product Owners and accountabilities of, of like, is that, that the level, and I’m gonna anchor, I suspect that’s not right. But I’m curious what your thoughts are on that.

Adam Ulery: [12:22] I think it’s not the answer to that is no. And I, I think the C level has a different place of course they, they’ve got a different level at which they operate the things they they’re accountable for are at a different level. And it needs to be relative to that, to, to the level you have in the org. So folks at that level they’ll have a strategy, a future direction. They want the organization to take where they see this business in three to five years and any change initiative, like an agile transformation needs to align to that. So what I think they need to have an understanding of how an agile transformation aligns to their vision and their strategy. That’s what I think they need.

Dan Neumann: [13:37] I was at a place and they made the speed-to-market was the big driver. And right next to it was quality speed-to-market high quality. They were doing, they were manipulating data. That was really important data. And as cars become self-driving, people could die. Like if the data’s wrong, literally people could die. So yeah, we wanna move fast and we have to move with quality. And so they weren’t talking Sprints and Scrums and in that case SAFe, they were talking, we need to be fast. And that informed the agile working group that was then responsible for the transformation we’re shipping that transformation. But when we did quarterly town halls, whenever there was product decisions to community process decisions, it was always speed-to-market and quality. It was, it drove so much alignment through the organization.

Adam Ulery: [14:33] Yeah. That’s, that’s fantastic. A lot of organization we show up to and start talking to don’t have that clarity. And so if they don’t, you know, that’s, that’s a good place to start, but any change, any change like this needs to align to where they, the direction they want the company to go, or else it’s just an expensive endeavor that isn’t gonna have, you know, it’s not gonna have a good ROI. Right. Why change then?

Dan Neumann: [15:05] Yeah. So what are some ways of, of building the awareness? Hopefully we’re making a decent case that there needs to be awareness of for the nature of the change, not just that something has to change, but this is the nature of the change we’re all gonna need to embrace. Are there some ways you’ve seen work better than others for, for building that awareness?

Adam Ulery: [15:28] Yeah. I, I think things like town hall-style communications and, and formal communications, which I’ve, I’ve even had clients who have engaged with their marketing teams to put together little marketing campaigns around the change. And I think that’s a great idea because the folks in marketing are experts at communicating a message, right? So they can help with that. HR can help, you know if you have a corporate communications group, having them involved can help as well. So all of this targeted communication with a similar message and tho those in person type events that allow for a little bidirectional communication, they’re not just a one way. Broadcast are really important to have us part of that, which is why I mentioned town hall. So in addition to those email and newsletter and, you know portal, post type communications, the in-person events I think are really important. And I, I find the most successful organizations at this, do it at multiple levels. So they’ll have a town hall style event where the, the big C level group is there. Right. and then they’ll have some smaller events by you know, by function of the organization where your midlevel managers are there running that one, and then they’ll have some smaller like team level events and a, a similar message is being communicated throughout. And that way folks are hearing messages from their direct managers that aligns to the message they’re hearing from top leadership.

Dan Neumann: [17:15] Yeah, for sure. So, as you were talking through some of those examples I was in an organization, they did, they, they used the marketing team. It was agile at, you know, company name was the initiative, and there were branded PowerPoints about it. The email communications all had, you know, agile at, you know, fill in name here. And it was very intentional that there is change happening and it had a name. And it was an initiative that people could, could rally around. And also the quarterly town halls on the change on agility were chances to build more awareness. So those are often things that happen kind of, not too far down the rail, but down the road. What about awareness building even before maybe there’s a thing to brand, right. Cause because the branding is a tangible output of awareness, but leading into that milestone, if you will, of, we have a brand for this now it feels to me like a lot of one-on-one awareness building would happen prior to that.

Adam Ulery: [18:24]
Yeah. I think, you know, speaking as an employee of a company, right. I, I like to have a little heads up of what’s coming. If it’s significant, you know, it’s nice to not just be hit over the head with something like, Hey Adam the way you work is completely changing soon. It would be nice to have a little lead in there. So, you know, I think some of that is very helpful. Like, like you said, some one-on-one type conversations you know, maybe managed employee type of things. Also some light messaging, but, but still transparent about the need for a change coming. You know, I think the earlier you can start that the better.

Dan Neumann: [19:09] Yeah, for sure. I think at, at these more senior levels, hopefully whoever’s the change champion there is building a little bit of awareness amongst their peers and building some support because date myself here 20 some years ago, the book who moved who moved my cheese was real popular. Like somebody’s cheese is gonna get moved in an agile journey. In fact, potentially everybody’s cheese moves in some unpredictable way. And so if there isn’t support for, we need to make this change, here’s the nature of the change. We need to get faster to the market. We need to get better at giving people the product they want at the end, not the product we thought they wanted at the beginning. We need to discover a, you know, we need to innovate whatever those drivers for the change are. Hopefully they’re building support with leadership. So there’s a coalition to support this. Otherwise it’s gonna get real awkward.

Adam Ulery: [20:04] Yeah. Yeah. I think so. So awareness is just a key first step and it’s for sure. It’s so interesting how often we see that skipped. It’s just an, it’s almost like a, an afterthought or not even an afterthought, just sort of a people will get this as we go but it’s an important introductory step, I think.

Dan Neumann: [20:31] Yeah, no, it is. And I that’s part of the reason we wanted to spend a meaningful amount of time on it here is it’s easy to skip and go straight to knowledge. Let’s get the Scrum trainer in here. Let’s yeah. Who should we use for scrum training, right. Where can we get the, the cheapest scrum trainer or how fast, like you know, can we be agile a couple months? That seems reasonable. That’s a long time, couple months, let’s just get the agile thing done. And, and it’s right to knowledge and ability. Let’s just get ourselves some Scrum Masters or Product Owner. We’ll flee dip them in the training and we’ll be good. And it’s awareness, awareness, awareness. This is the nature of the change we’re going through. So let’s move on to the desire part. So I might know that I, okay. I’m aware I gotta lose 10 pounds next year, but if I don’t actually have the desire to make a change I’m going right back to the chips and 11 o’clock snack at night. Right. That’s you know, if there’s no desire to make the change happen, awareness just makes you feel guilty later. Right?

Adam Ulery: [21:38] Right. Yeah. Yeah. What’s in it for you, Dan, why why skip the cheesy nachos? Right.

Dan Neumann: [21:47] Oh man. That’s the guy who ate cheesy nachos last night. Yeah. You know, it’s, what’s in, you know, from a personal change management, maybe that means a healthier lifestyle ability to, you know, keep up with kids or see grandkids or know, not have feet amputated from type two diabetes, you know, like there’s some real downsides to, to not taking care of one’s personal health. And from a corporate standpoint, what’s in it for me as a developer would be a really interesting question to make sure you have an answer for why should I change if I am a middle manager, why should I stop being a directive in the tasks that people do on a day to day basis? What’s why do I want a self-managing team? I got here by telling people what to do. What’s in it for me now with this agile crap. Yeah.

Adam Ulery: [22:40] Yeah. I think that is a really good example and organizations who are going through a change and really need people able to be on board and support it for it to be successful. I, I think they should help people connect those dots. Why, why force them to connect those dots for themselves or figure it out for themselves, especially if people maybe really struggling to do that and might not ever get that there. Right? Oh, you’re, you’re gonna do this new thing, Dan. And you may have trouble seeing why that’s good for you, but you have to do it well, you know, you’re gonna lose people faster than you’re gonna transform them with that approach. So it’s in the organization’s best interest for leaders and change agents and people involved in, in supporting the change to help people with that, have those conversations with them and work with them to figure out some benefits to them changing and create that desire. What do you think Dan?

Dan Neumann: [23:45] I, I do. I was reflecting back on a place. I was at the, the big boss says, we’re going agile. We’re doing two week sprints go. And actually one of my good friends, he was a groomsman for me in the wedding, his cheese got moved. He was the guy that would run around and collect all the code once a month to do the big build, to do like he, he had a really important job and, and the agile stuff, he didn’t have a desire for it after a little while. He said, thank you, not the place for me anymore. Then he moved on just the desire for something different. At that point, wasn’t there for him. Fast forward, you know, 20 years, he’s a functional manager in an organization that’s agile and he’s doing all the things that are you aligning well with agile values and principles. But at that point he didn’t have what’s in it for him. And that’s okay. But you, it gets tough when people who aren’t aligned stay right, it gets really, really difficult to move. So we wanna keep people there having that, help them connect to what’s in it, for them as a developer, I hated long feedback loops, right? When we would build some software, somebody would test some software and we’d get it out in the field. We’d go, Ooh, that didn’t work. Ooh, that’s slow. Oh, we put it in the usability lab and man, Sally was super confused. She didn’t know what button to click. We thought that was a great UI. Those types of things just caused so much pain. What’s in it for me in a Scrum world, there would’ve been, oh, fast feedback loop. We put something quick and dirty together. We gave it to Sally and realized, oh, she’s not able to do her job with this. We better change fast. So for me, the, the pain of long feedback loops was great and shortening feedback loops provided tremendous value. So that’s, that’s a, what’s in it for me.

Adam Ulery: [25:40]
That’s a great example. And I was one and have a lot of friends who were in this situ of just abhorring the death March on a long project where, you know, you’ve been slaving away for a number of months, even, even years in some cases. And you’ve got the, the big go live and, you know, the closer and closer it gets to the big go live, the more you realize guys, isn’t there that needs to be, or we’ve got things that are broken or need to be cleaned up. And, and, you know, it just turns into this nasty, stressful period of time, right. Where you’re just trying to get through it. And long nights and weekends and time away from your loved ones doing this, that isn’t very enjoyable. Like why would you wanna work that way?

Dan Neumann: [26:35] Yeah, it makes for some great war stories. Hey, we compiled the code at four 30. We put it on the CD. Of course again, dating myself, right. Compiled at 4:30 AM. Put it on the CD, ran home, grabbed a shower, flew to the client at seven o’clock. Right. Yeah. We made it. Let’s not do that again. That was terrible. Wasn’t it terrible? Yeah. True story too, though. Right. Yeah. That not at AgileThought. Mind you, it was a, it was a, a previous life, but let’s talk. How, how might you build desire, especially for those folks in the middle. Like we talked about maybe managers who got to a place by being the directive type of behavior anything you’ve seen to help build desire amongst that type of person.

Adam Ulery: [27:23] I think it’s to help them think about their personal goals and ambitions and aspirations and, and see how this can be a part of that. An example, I have a, a friend of mine whose company is going through a transformation right now. And he has aspirations to be in management. He wants to work his way up to be a leader of a technical organization, but with what he sees his role being, of course he was told what he would be you you’re gonna be a Scrum Master, right? He, he had no say in the matter it’s not clear that that really lines up with his long goals and he’s having trouble right now seeing how it would. And as his friend I’m, I’m working with him to help him see that, well, actually there is a path from that accountability or role. And you could, you could there, but if someone doesn’t help him see that he is not gonna have the desire to change at all. Right. he won’t. And, and so I think that’s, that’s part of the answer there is helping people see how this could align to their longer term career aspirations and how it can be, you know, one of the stepping stones along the way. What have you seen, Dan?

Dan Neumann: [28:52] Yeah. As you were describing that I almost pictured, Hey, what are your goals? Literally write ’em down, put ’em there. And then what’s the change you’re being asked to do over on the other side, and maybe on the left, you know, what’s the change over on the right? What are your goals? And almost literally mapping one to the other with here’s how these can support those. And maybe there’s some gaps. Maybe there are some things that don’t support your ultimate goals, but maybe it’s the cost of where you’re at right now for a period of time and doing those with some excellence, because doing things with excellence will catch people’s attention and lead to some future opportunities. Maybe it’s maybe the thing you’re doing, isn’t the most amazing thing you’ve ever you’ve ever done, but if you can do it and show competence and excellence in it, that leads to trust that you can do other things with competence and excellence at a different level in the organization. So I think that’s a huge deal.

Adam Ulery: [29:46]
Yeah, absolutely. And, and a lot of times it could be just explaining some of the benefits, you know, like we were talking earlier about some of the benefits of shifting to an agile way of, and sometimes that’s enough for folks. They, they may not be trying to reach a certain career, I don’t know, like a, a role or a title or something in their career. They just want to know, Hey, look, I’m, I’m really happy doing what I’m doing right now. I enjoy my craft. And if you can talk about some advantages of, of that to them where they are, that could be plenty.

Dan Neumann: [30:27] Right? Yeah. Where there, maybe they get to learn some new technologies. Maybe they get to collaborate with others within the organization, as opposed to being within their silo. Yeah. Lots, lots of different ways to explore that. So Adam I’d wanna ask, we’ve spent this episode talking about awareness and desire and the importance of both. So maybe any closing thoughts on these topics and then we’ll save knowledgeability and reinforcement for the New Year’s Eve episode.

Adam Ulery: [30:57]
Excellent. yeah, I guess the, the parting thought here is one strong underlying theme I see in both of these steps is transparency and you know, good communication, effective communication. So from a leadership standpoint, as transparent as you can be, and as much of a, a relational communication, as much of a connection, you can make with the folks who are gonna be going through the change, empathizing with them about what they’re gonna be going through to make this change, and then being able to just relate to them and, and have some discussions around that and, and help them see how this can be. And I opportunity for them. I, I think all of that is, is something valuable for leaders to be aware of.

Dan Neumann: [31:51] I agree. And as you were talking about that, it, a phrase like humans want to make sense of the world around them. It’s, it’s a thing humans do, whether that’s through stories or myths science or whatever the case might be, they wanna make sense of the world around them. And, and when you are in an organization, you’re trying to make a change. If it doesn’t make sense, you’re gonna have a hard time getting the bias awareness desire, make, make the change, make sense. Adam really appreciate your time on this episode. And Lola talk to you a little bit and we’ll talk about knowledgeability and reinforcement.

Adam Ulery: [32:28]
My pleasure, Dan.

Outro: [32:31] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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