On this episode, Dan Neumann is joined by Jim Ewel, the President and founder of AgileMarketing.net.
In their conversation, Jim gives the lowdown on all things agile marketing. He shares how the world of agile marketing is both similar and dissimilar to agile for software developers, the key drivers that have led marketers to adopt agile (especially in the past year), the benefits for marketers adopting agile, and his coaching tips for getting started with coaching in the space of agile marketing.
- The key drivers that have led marketers to adopt agile:
- The pace of change (both with the pandemic and the shift to digital advertising, mobile devices, and technology tools)
- With this shift to technology, marketers are having to become technologists (and part of how you do that is through agile)
- The limited resources also have been moving marketers to agile with the increased demand
- The benefits for marketers in adopting agility:
- With the shift to digital, the opportunity for feedback is greatly accelerated in marketing to enable agility
- Digital tools allow marketers to be more precise about the outcomes of their marketing than ever before
- Agility creates a focus on outcomes rather than outputs which applies directly to marketing (because marketers want to make sure that they are continuously testing to improve business outcomes; not just simply putting out more content)
- The process creates predictability
- Understanding top-down decisions vs. decentralized decisions (knowing who gets to decide what, when, and with what information is critical to moving fast)
- Utilizing intent-based leadership (i.e. giving people permission to make the decisions and they tell you their intent. As a manager, your responsibility is to provide real clarity about what a good decision looks like and make sure that people are competent in whatever it is that they’re making decisions about)
- Agile in marketing vs. agile in software:
- How marketers use user stories (which, in turn, impacts how they build and process their backlog as well)
- The agile marketing world uses the methodologies of Scrum, Kanban, and Scrumban
- Which one they use depends on what kind of marketing they’re doing
- Marketers are more likely to practice the informal kind of Scrumban rather than the formal kind (they typically adapt various practices to their various needs and company)
- Marketers are less likely to do canonical Scrum than developers are
- Jim’s coaching tips for getting started with coaching in the marketing agile space:
- If you’re looking to practice agile marketing, start with a certification
- Start with a marketing background before you become an agile marketing coach
- Read Jim’s book, The Six Disciplines of Agile Marketing
- Before you teach the process of agile, you need to get alignment on why the team you’re coaching is implementing agile marketing, what problems they’re trying to solve, what success looks like, and how they can measure success
- Structure is key for an agile marketing team
- Check out the resources tab on AgileMarketing.net
About Jim Ewel: Jim has been involved with agile and marketing for over 10 hears and is a leading proponent of using agile in the marketing space. He was one of the original co-authors of the Agile Marketing Manifesto as well as his recently published book, The Six Disciplines of Agile Marketing: Proven Practices for More Effective Marketing and Better Business Results. He is also an agile marketing blogger, trainer, speaker, and angel investor.
Mentioned in this Episode:
- Jim Ewel’s LinkedIn
- Jim Ewel’s Twitter
- The Agile Marketing Manifesto
- The Six Disciplines of Agile Marketing: Proven Practices for More Effective Marketing and Better Business Results, by Jim Ewel
- Turn the Ship Around!: A True Story of Turning Followers into Leaders, by David Marquet
- “The 7 Levels of Delegation,” by Jurgen Appelo
- Hacking Marketing: Agile Practices to Make Marketing Smarter, Faster, and More Innovative, by Scott Brinker
- Experiences: The 7th Era of Marketing, by Robert Rose and Carla Johnson
- Practical Kanban: From Team Focus to Creating Value, by Klaus Leopold
Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language and rules of grammar.]
Intro: [00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought, the podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.
Dan Neumann: [00:16] Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner. I’m your host Dan Neuman, and I’m excited today to have a slightly different topic and a special guest with us. Uh, Jim Ewel is my guest today and he’s a leading proponent of using agile in the marketing space. And, uh, Jim, you were saying you’ve been at it for awhile. You are the co-author of the marketing manifesto originally, and you have, uh, published a book to help others learn about agile and marketing called the six disciplines of agile marketing proven practices for more effective marketing and better business results. So super excited to have you. Thanks, Jim.
Jim Ewel: [00:54] Dan, I’m super excited to be here. Yeah. I’ve been involved with agile and marketing for over 10 years now and, uh, it’s been quite a ride. Uh, it started out as something that, you know, no one thought, come on, you know, this is a thing for software development. And, uh, now the latest survey, which is actually the begin at the end of 2019, uh, over 40% of marketers are practicing some form of agile and another, uh, almost half of the remainder, uh, the 60% who aren’t said that they plan to by the end of the year, uh, and from everything we’ve seen, COVID, uh, in the pandemic has actually accelerated the adoption of agile in marketing. So, uh, uh, we’re quite excited about that.
Dan Neumann: [01:38] That’s super cool. And maybe it would be helpful to, um, to share some of the challenges that marketers have that are leading them to agile. So in the software space, it was highly predictive, kind of single shot through a heavily gated process and ending up with terrible results at the end. I love that your book builds in better business results in right into the title what’s driving, marketing away. Well, what, what else would they do besides agile? And what’s driving them towards agility.
Jim Ewel: [02:08] Yeah, there are a number of things that are driving them towards agile. Um, one is simply the pace of change. Uh, you know, the pandemic is, is one thing, but, uh, also the pace of technology change, um, you know, the, the shift to digital, uh, and so this year for the first time more money has been spent on digital advertising than on traditional advertising, you know, TV and billboards and radio and all that other stuff. Okay. Uh, but that’s just been going on for a long time and, and that certainly the, the shift in technology to mobile devices, you know, uh, if you’ve got a website or whatever, generally about half to 60% of your, your users are coming to you from a mobile device, and that changes a little bit how, uh, market to them and what you present to them and that sort of stuff. Um, there’s also the impact of technology in terms of the tools that marketers use. Uh, you know, when I started doing marketing, our tools were Excel and word and PowerPoint. Honestly, those were the tools that we used. And until recently there was a lot of truth to that. Now, um, there’s a infographic that a guy named Scott Brinker puts out every year, a site called the chief marketing technologist, and he’s been doing it for about seven or eight years now, when he first looked at technology for marketers, he found like a couple hundred products that, you know, were appropriate for marketers. Um, after six years, he had to limit it to 5,000. Okay. And I think now, if he looks at how many he has in his database, I think it’s, it’s getting up close to 8,000 different products. Okay. Now nobody can keep track of that, you know, but, but marketers are having to become technologists and having to deliver, uh, platforms, which, you know, part of that is, you know, how you do that is through agile rather than through a waterfall methodology. Um, one more factor that is moving, uh, marketers to agile, and that is the limited resources. Uh, you know, there’s more demand on marketers today, more things that they need to do, but there’s not more money and there’s not more people. Uh, and so, uh, they’re having to do more with less and, and really what that means is prioritize. Okay. And one of the things that agile really helps them do is to focus on what’s the most important thing.
Dan Neumann: [04:46] And that’s really, you know, whether it’s software or any other realm in marketing here, there’s always more good ideas, more potential possibilities to pursue them than there is a capacity dollars, um, attention span to go ahead and pursue. And so I think that’s really important. Yeah. In software agility, we talk about feedback loops. The Scrum framework has those built in, and as you’re talking about the old tools, Excel and PowerPoint and whatnot, and the shift now to digital, it seems to me that the opportunity for feedback would also be greatly accelerated in marketing to enable agility.
Jim Ewel: [05:29] It is, um, digital allows us to be more precise about the outcomes of our marketing than ever before. Okay. But to do that, marketers have to shift from a campaign approach to an approach of continuous improvement. And this is one of my one of my shifts that I talk about, uh, that they need to do. And the difference really is in, in a campaign approach, which is very much traditional marketing. You, you build a campaign, you run it for six to 12 months, you spend millions of dollars. And at the end, you know, if it didn’t work, nobody’s going to say, Oh, I just wasted six months in 12 and you know, $10 million. Right. I mean, we’re marketers, we tell stories. And so what we do is we find what Eric Reese refers to as vanity metrics to support that that campaign was successful. Right? I mean, so many times business people will look at the marketing campaigns and say, Oh, you had this many impressions and you had this many people who could recall the campaign. So what, okay. That, that, those classic examples of vanity metrics, right? So, you know, one of the things with agile is, uh, the focus on outcomes rather than outputs, right. And that applies directly to marketing. We want to make sure that we are continuously improving and testing to improve those outcomes, those business outcomes, um, and not just putting out more content. Uh, yeah, actually, there’s one thing I want to say here, and that is no one ever said, no customer ever said, I want more marketing. Right. I want more emails coming into my inbox marketing to me. Right. Um, one of the studies I talk about in the book is a, um, a bank that went from sending their customer 17 emails a month to sending them just two very highly targeted and very personalized emails to the individuals. Right. And as a result, their conversion rate went up nine X. Nine times. Okay. On, you know, nine, two emails compared to 17 emails. Right. So, um, that’s an example of where marketers can really focus on the outcomes rather than the outputs.
Dan Neumann: [07:56] Yeah. So as opposed to how much volume are we generating? Are we getting the desired outcome, which is a conversion and which it would be a sale, I suppose, or a sign up to a list or whatever their, whatever their stated goal would be. Yeah.
Jim Ewel: [08:08] Whatever that business goal would be. So.
Dan Neumann: [08:11] That’s beautiful. How, how else might you characterize the difference in agile, in a marketing standpoint versus agility in a software world. Help maybe people connect those.
Jim Ewel: [08:22] Yeah. Well, there are, there are a number of differences. Um, one of the differences that I talk about in the book is the difference in terms of how marketers use user stories. Okay. Oftentimes in development, a user story can be very specific and it can be for a discreet, uh, set of functionality. And then, excuse me, the developer builds that set of functionality into the product. Okay. And generally they would satisfy that user story with whatever they built. Marketers, the user stories tend to be much more general than, than they are specific and they tend to get satisfied, not once, but multiple times let’s take, for example, let’s say you have a user story that says, um, you know, as a, uh, as someone who is unhappy with my current cell phone plan, I want to find a plan that saves me money and gets me a new iPhone every two years. Okay. Something, whatever it is. Okay. Well, you can imagine satisfying that with a web page. You could imagine satisfying that with some kind of, uh, uh, email that gets sent out to somebody that, you know, uh, promotes that, uh, it could be a brochure. I mean, not a print brochure, but a PDF type of thing. It could be a television commercial, it could be a radio commercial, you know, I mean, there’s a variety of different mediums to be able to satisfy that user story. And that typically is what marketers do. Uh, so there is a difference in terms of how they, they use user stories. Uh, and it means it’s, there’s some differences in terms of how they build their backlog and how they process their backlog as well.
Dan Neumann: [10:20] Very interesting. Yeah. There’s so many different channels now, you know, I mean, I still get stuff showing up in the, the actual us mail,
Jim Ewel: [10:31] It actually can be pretty effective for certain types of products and certain industries. Yeah.
Dan Neumann: [10:37] Thinking from an agile standpoint and especially an agile coaching standpoint, then do you see that agile marketing teams generally are, they, are, they flow-based take, uh, applying the Kanban method maybe to flow, are, do they tend to adopt an iterative scrum type of framework or they blend scrum and Kanban together? Or is it more principles-based like, Hey, it’s agile, you know, forget about scrum, forget about Kanban. And we have people in interactions where improving over time, we’re collaborating with our customers. What’s your sense for what the agile marketing world looks?
Jim Ewel: [11:13] Well, certainly the principles apply, but yes, they do use the methodologies of Scrum and Kanban and Scrumban. Um, and which one of those they use, uh, depends greatly on what kind of marketing that they’re doing. Let me give you some examples. Let’s say that you were doing content marketing, where you are producing content. It could be any kind of content. It could be web pages, it could be, uh, brochures. It could be television, whatever it is, content is something that often is, uh, appropriate for Scrum because you can, uh, what you’re trying to do, uh, the production of content is in a way, very similar to the production of software. You know, you, you have sort of a spec which is often called the creative brief. You, you know, you, you, you, uh, create, uh, kind of a first version of it and get some feedback either internally or from the market, and then you iterate on it and so forth. But it, it, it can be very similar to what, uh, people do with software and, and, uh, amenable to that. Okay. There are other parts of marketing that they don’t have as much control over their work. And, um, and the timing is such that it’s much better to make it flow based. Um, social media would be an example of that. I mean, you can’t say I’m going to plan out the next two weeks in social media, right. Who knows what’s going to happen in two weeks? It’s been a crazy year. Another example would actually be creative teams and creative teams are often the people who, you know, they, they know the Adobe tools really well, and they produce all the graphics and all the images and all that sort of stuff. And typically their work is flow-based, they, something comes in and they get it done in a certain cycle time and, and push it out the door. Right. And everything’s just constantly coming at them. And what they need to learn to do is, uh, you know, one have different tracks of normal priority and an expedite priority. Um, but also just learn to get, to get a steady cycle time because, you know, one of the things that you try to do in Kanban is to make it predictable as to when you’re going to get something through the process. And predictability is almost more valuable than shorter time, right. Uh, I mean, if I have to choose between an average time of three days, uh, but it’s totally unpredictable versus an average time of four days, and it’s super predictable. Most people are going to choose the four days. Uh, so, um, and then Scrumban. Um, well, let me just say one thing about that, and that is there’s, I think of two flavors of Scrumban. One is just the mix and match people. Just mixed it a little bit of both, and they call it Scrumban. And then there’s the formal Scrumban that people like Corey Lactose I’m, I’m not sure if I got his name right. Uh, have written about, and other people have written about, um, what you find more marketers doing is the informal kind. And, uh, they typically adapt various practices to their particular needs and, and company. Um, so, uh, they’re less likely to do canonical Scrum than developers are even though many developers don’t, but I mean, almost no marketers do so.
Dan Neumann: [14:47] So it’s like a Scrum, but ban where it’s like, we’re doing Scrum, but we don’t do this. And we throw a little ban in.
Jim Ewel: [14:54] Okay. So I’m not a big fan of Scrumban. Right.
Dan Neumann: [14:58] No, I was just trying to, I was trying to describe what I thought I was hearing. Yeah,
Jim Ewel: [15:02] No, but I am a big fan of that Kanban takes an evolutionary approach. And I do tell people, look, um, I actually encourage more use of Kanban than, of, of Scrum and marketing teams, but it depends on what they’re doing and, and if they do it, I encourage them to, you know, evolve. And if there are certain practices from Scrum, you know, like the retrospective, I pretty much, I always encourage them to do that as needed, um, you know, uh, quarterly planning type stuff. Similar to what uh, SAFe would do is often something that I, uh, tell people to do. That’s not formally a part of scrum. Uh, so there, there various techniques, uh, many of which the developers have already, you know, uh, shown the way on the road to that, uh, that I encourage marketers to use.
Dan Neumann: [16:10] You touched us, I’m going to get a sore neck from nodding in agreement as you’re talking. And people can’t see that. But, uh, I love the evolutionary approach. If you are claiming to do Kanban and you are not evolving, you’re not doing Kanban. You, you have a board with stuff on it and that’s okay if that serves your needs. That’s okay. But looking to improve that process. And then the other thing I wanted to, to, uh, reiterate the predictability of Kanban I’ve come across my attention. Well, Kanban doesn’t have, you know, forecasting or predictability. Oh, no, no, it does. That’s, that’s absolutely a thing. And using the performance and yeah, if it’s three days on average, but you might get it in five minutes and you might get it in six days, that’s really hard to work with. But if it’s three days give or take a day or give, or take eight hours, that’s super valuable right now I can plan. I can build the rest of the work around it. Yeah. One of your shifts, you talked a couple of them outputs to outcomes. You talked about campaigns to continuous improvement. I think internally versus customer focused, um, feels not disparaging. It feels a little self-evident the one I really wanted to explore for a few minutes is top-down decisions versus decentralized decisions, because that ability to know who gets to decide what, and when, and with what information is really critical to moving fast,
Jim Ewel: [17:35] It is. Um, and, um, it’s also the most difficult one to do as you know. Um, but, uh, I, so one of my, my heroes on this particular, uh, issue is a guy named David Marquet. Um, and David wrote a book called turn the ship around and, and he’s done some great videos and things like that. And he uses a technique called intent based leadership. Right. And, and the idea is that you give people, um, the permission to make decisions, but they are telling you their intent, right. And as a manager, your responsibility is to do two things. One provide real clarity about what a good decision looks like. Okay. And, and honestly, that’s something that many managers don’t do upfront, right. Instead they rely on sort of inspection getting back to, you know, an agile term or at least a Scrum term. Um, and you know, they’ll, they’ll tell people produce a campaign. I’m not going to give you much in the way of guidance, but once you screw it up, then I’ll tell you how you screwed up. Right. You know, I mean, right. So, uh, David would say, and I agree with this upfront provide as much clarity as you can about what a good decision looks like. Okay. Then people can make whatever the decisions are that fit that criteria and they can figure out how to do it. And oftentimes quite frankly, they’ll figure out a better way than management would themselves because they’re closer to the customer. They may be more familiar with, you know, new techniques that have been brought forward since the time that the manager worked as an individual contributor, all those kinds of things. And then the second part of the David talks about his two pillars is, is the idea of making sure that people are competent in whatever it is that they’re making decisions about, that they, you know, they have the skills to be able to do that. And so there’s an element of, of coaching of, of making sure that they get training, all that sort of stuff, uh, in, uh, you know, in, in that transition from top down, uh, to distributed decision-making. By the way, distributed decision-making does not mean that all the decisions are made down at the bottom of the organization. What it really means is that leaders are freed up to make the decisions that are the most critical, the ones where they have unique expertise, um, and they can spend more time making those decisions and making them well, because they’re freed up from, you know, sort of the, the, the other stuff that, uh, there are better people to, to make those decisions. As David says, look, they have time to go home for Thanksgiving because they’re not so crazy making, you know, a little bitty decisions.
Dan Neumann: [20:43] That’s, that’s wonderful. And, and, uh, like, like you said, the inspection, that’s wrong, that’s wrong. That’s wrong. Can be incredibly demoralizing as opposed to, this is what a good decision looks like and helping make sure that they’re capable of doing that. And one of the pieces that comes to mind that pairs, well, with that in my book, you’re Palo has published. I don’t know if he created or borrowed it from somebody else, but it’s seven levels of delegation. And it’s a framework for for clarifying, who has what decision-making authority am I, as the leader going to rule by Fiat that that is a legitimate option. Is it, I totally don’t care what you do, where are you going for lunch? I don’t care. Right. So that’s the other end of the spectrum. And then in the middle everywhere for, we have to agree, uh, as the divider on the right is varying levels of autonomy for the person doing and to the left is more autonomy for the person in the positional authority. And you can clarify really well with that framework.
Jim Ewel: [21:43] I actually used that framework in my last company, we had weekly management meetings and I would send out an agenda for the meeting. And, uh, there were inevitably decisions that we had to make. And I used that framework to be very specific about, is this a, you know, level one through seven, uh, decision, right? Uh, I mean, there were some decisions where I said, I’ve already made up my mind. This is what we’re going to do. You know, uh, for me there weren’t many of those, but, but occasionally that would happen. And, you know, as long as that wasn’t common people were okay with that. They, and I explained why it was that kind of decision people were fine with that. Okay. Uh, and it helped me as a leader, uh, get more insight into, uh, the kinds of decisions that I was making, because quite frankly, when I started, I was really making too many of the decisions I honestly was. And it made me aware of that, um, to be able to do that.
Dan Neumann: [22:42] So that’s, that’s really a, an insightful, um, example of those applied. I’m curious from a, from a coaching standpoint, let’s say somebody who’s listening to the podcast now, and they’re like, cool. This agile marketing sounds really interesting. Maybe they’re not in the marketing group, maybe they are impacted by the current process in the marketing group. How, how, how might you suggest somebody who wants to maybe coach related to this topic kind of get started or open the conversations are really trying to, uh, get some engagement there?
Jim Ewel: [23:13] Well, Dan, that’s an area where we, as a agile marketing, uh, you know, uh, infrastructure have, are not very mature at this point. Okay. Uh, we have certification for agile marketing and that’s a place to start. Okay. But that’s more certification on being somebody who practices agile marketing. Okay. Oh, that certification is from IC agile, by the way, if you’re familiar with them. Um, but we don’t yet have any kind of surf certification on agile coaches, uh, any kind of coaching certification. And that’s something that we, we we’ve realized is, uh, is a need and, and something that we are looking at, what we do moving forward. Um, there are a couple of things I’d say, and, you know, I may be biased about this, but Oh, I am. Um, so, um, I, I think it’s really important to have a marketing background before you become an agile marketing coach. I mean, imagine if somebody has never done software development and they become a coach for agile software development, it’d be really hard, right. I mean, it’d be very hard to one to have credibility and two, uh, really understand some of the issues that people are facing. Um, and it’s the same with marketing. I mean, there are just some unique issues in marketing that unless you’ve experienced them, unless you’ve done some marketing, it can be very hard to, uh, coach, uh, in a credible way. Uh, even if you understand agile super well. Um, and, and I’ve seen that I, I co-taught with a friend who, uh, his background is software development. He is a great agile coach. I mean, this guy knows so much more than I do about agile and particularly SAFe and all that sort of stuff. And I love him to death, uh, but he’s not as good a coach for marketers. So, and I think he just kind of realized that he does some of that still, but, um, you know, it’s, he tends to more focus on what he does well, which is the sort of general, uh, agile coaching.
Dan Neumann: [25:30] No, that makes sense. I, at one place did have a, an opening. There was a poll from the marketing team that, you know, similar challenges, what you were mentioning earlier, uh, too much work, um, really challenged to deliver it all. That’s a really big, hairy deals in the year. Like the consumer electronics show. If you screw that up, it’s really bad for your company for a long, long time. And it has zeros on the end of it. Uh, and then they had small things, Hey, we need to make sure that the booth gets to this show, you know, just the blocking and tackling of the operations. And it was really interesting to see what goes on in marketing. And I’m a computer science major back in the day. I don’t know, marketing and you’re right. It was, it was a challenge. Yeah. We were able to still apply Kanban and give visibility and things like that, but I I’m sure we were missing some things.
Jim Ewel: [26:20] And, and that’s part of, part of the reason that I got into this is that, um, you know, so I, although I don’t have a computer science degree, I had started out my career doing development on mainframe computers. Right. And so I understood basic things about the development process. I mean, had actually gone through the waterfall process and, and seen a that we thought we were delivering great stuff and, you know, the, the customer, their whole business had changed in the two years. It took us to deliver the project and so delivering the wrong thing. Right. So I understood all that very viscerally. And then in my first startup, uh, we used agile, uh, this is back in the mid two thousands, 2004, five, six, something like that. And, um, and I really saw how it could work with software development, but by then, my background was in marketing. I did marketing for the, uh, you know, since about 1985, 87, something like that. And, um, so, uh, I started thinking about how to adapt what I saw the software developers doing to marketing and it, and it’s kind of taken me 10 years to, I mean, to figure a lot of that stuff out, a little story about the book. Um, I started writing a book almost six years ago and, um, and I stopped it for a while because I felt that I didn’t really know enough to do justice to what I wanted to do for the book. I wanted it to be very much a pragmatic practitioner’s guide, not a here’s what agile marketing is, and here’s the principles and the values and all that sort of stuff. Right. I mean, that’s kind of already been done. Um, and in fact, Scott Brinker wrote a great book about that called hacking marketing. Um, but, um, I wanted something that was much more, uh, look all right, I get all the principles and all that stuff, but how do I actually do that? And so I spent a lot of time helping other companies, uh, you know, I think I’m up to about 67 companies now that I’ve helped, uh, adapt, adopt, uh, agile marketing. And, um, they’ve taught me a ton, right. Uh, and I’ve kind of learned some things that work in small companies and some other things that work in big companies and, you know, some of the things that derail, uh, implementations and, and so there’s that, that stuff got worked into the book. And it’s what helped me come up with, you know, sort of the framework, um, just to give it a real, a real example of that when I first started teaching, uh, agile, I started out by teaching people scrum and Kanban and the process, but I realized that before I did that, I needed to get alignment on why were they implementing agile marketing? What were the problems that they were seeking to solve? And what did success look like and how were they going to measure it? I mean, if you get measured far as I’m concerned, don’t exist. Right. And so, um, so that became the first discipline was alignment before we got into process, which is the third discipline. The second discipline is structure because I’ve found that most marketing teams are organized in what I call skill set silos. Right. And, um, there are very, very few cross-functional teams in marketing. Uh, and so I, I needed to introduce the idea of cross-functional teams early on. And now I pretty much insist that my clients implement at least one cross-functional team. And then I, I want them to try it out. Okay. Um, and, uh, so that was, that’s a example of some of the guidance that I learned from helping customers that went into the book.
Dan Neumann: [30:25] That’s wonderful. Thank you. So there’s, there’s your book that’s available. And again, folks can at least find it on Amazon, and I’m sure several other places, the six disciplines of agile marketing proven practices for more effective marketing and better business results. Uh, are there any other resources that you, uh, mentioned? So Scott Brinker’s, uh, hacking marketing, are there some other things that if they want to pursue more learning, um, would be valuable.
Jim Ewel: [30:51] There’s my website. Okay. Which is agilemarketing.net. Okay. Then I have a, um, a tab on there, uh, called resources and I have a number of, uh, different downloads, you know, sort of basic what is agile marketing to a 12 week implementation plan to, you know, a bunch of different things, a template for writing user stories, all that kind of stuff.
Dan Neumann: [31:14] Wonderful. So thanks for those resources, Jim, we’ll put a link in the show notes, uh, agilethought.com/podcast. And at the end of our shows, a lot of times we ask folks what they’re reading typically as part of a continuous improvement journey. And I’m curious what maybe you’re pursuing from a, from a growth standpoint.
Jim Ewel: [31:32] Well, one of the books that I read, um, Oh, it was probably about six or nine months ago, but it’s one of my favorites. And one that I recommend to people, uh, it’s called the experiences, the seventh era of marketing by Robert Rose and Carla Johnson. And it talks about how, uh, today people aren’t buying products or they’re not buying services, they’re buying experiences, the experiences with the brand, the experiences, uh, you know, that, that, that they want. Okay. Uh, and what, what does that mean for marketers? And, and, uh, it talks about how, uh, rather than being stewards of the brand, we as marketers need to become stewards of the customer experience and everything that, that implies. So I can’t recommend that book highly enough. And then one that I’m just in the process of, of reading right now, um, is it’s called practical, Kanban from team focus to creating value by Klaus Leopold. Um, really good book about Kanban. You know, I mean, I’ve, I’ve read Anderson’s book And, you know, a number of the standard books on, on Kanban, but, uh, uh, this one, uh, I, I really likes and some nuggets of gold in that book.
Dan Neumann: [32:50] That’s wonderful. I will have to check that out. And, uh, I’m definitely going to share the experiences book with the AgileThought Marketing team, uh, as well as then the six disciplines of agile marketing. Some of the things you’re saying are, are definitely aligned with things that I hear from our marketing team, especially around the experience. When somebody, especially in professional services, you’re, it’s, you’re not buying a widget off a shelf where all the widgets are identical. A lot of it does have to do with experience so wonderful. I’ll dig deeper on that subject.
Jim Ewel: [33:19] Sounds good, Dan.
Dan Neumann: [33:20] Thanks for joining Jim and exploring agile marketing with us today.
Outro: [33:24] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts, and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.