In today’s episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by Abiodun Osoba, the CEO and founder of the Agile Advisor Africa. Today, Abiodun and Dan are going to explore the role of the agile coach, specifically as it relates to the challenges of agile adoption and getting individuals in the community to embrace agility in the agile framework. Abiodun shares the challenges she has personally seen as an agile coach with organizations embracing the agile framework, her strategies and suggestions in mitigating said challenges, what she has done to help bring agility into organizations in Nigeria, and her advice in implementing agility in traditional organizations.
- Challenges that Abiodun sees as an agile coach with organizations embracing the agile framework:
- Embracing agile values and principles can be difficult in places where the traditional culture is very strong
- One of the biggest challenges for an organization driving its team towards embracing an agile culture lies with leadership
- If leadership is not able to make a decision quickly with regards to change and focuses on what they’re going to lose instead of what they’re going to gain
- Leadership may struggle with the dynamic shifting from “managing” to “collaboration”, and losing their positional authority
- Competitive storytelling
- Abiodun’s strategies and suggestions to mitigate these challenges:
- Openly talk about the everyday challenges you are facing (not as a professional, but as a person) in your network
- It is important that people know you have empathy and that you are wearing similar shoes to their own
- If you communicate well, they will be more open to your advice and suggestions
- When the organization or teams trust you can cite similar challenges, they will be more open to trying the solutions you used in those stories and experiences to build empathy and connection
- Openly talk about the everyday challenges you are facing (not as a professional, but as a person) in your network
- What Abiodun has done to help bring agility into organizations in Nigeria:
- The Agile Nigeria Conference (hosted by the Agile Practitioners Association of Nigeria) has been a way to reach out to several organizations and thought leaders to share the agile framework
- Partnerships from this networking have helped people become certified, provided access to resources, membership discounts, etc. There has been an influx of involvement in the Nigerian agile community
- It has helped create a platform where people can contribute and move the needle
- The Agile Nigeria Conference (hosted by the Agile Practitioners Association of Nigeria) has been a way to reach out to several organizations and thought leaders to share the agile framework
- How do organizations respond to implementing an agile framework? And what are some of the tactics that Abiodun suggests for getting more traction with implementing changes in an organization?
- They generally respond in a very open way and know that change is important
- What they’re doing as a community is having local people (Project Owners, Scrum Masters, etc.) have open conversations about agility early next year
- With Abiodun’s company, they are compiling their own thoughts and reflections on the new Scrum Guide, packaging that information and sharing it with their clients
- Spreading awareness and providing education and resources can be helpful in gaining traction
- Abiodun’s suggestions in implementing agility in a traditional organization:
- The approach should look more evolutionary instead of prescriptive
- Take advantage of what you already have and make some strides and efforts before you start implementing changes, especially in traditional organizations
- Providing a roadmap without it being step-by-step satisfies clients/organizations in letting them not feel left in the dark and being overly prescriptive
About Abiodun Osoba: Abiodun has over 20 years of experience in telecommunications, banking, retail, wholesale, technology, startups and software industries, and over 16 years of experience working in agile environments. She has provided executive agile coaching in 10 countries, trained over 200 staff in agile fundamentals, Scrum and Kanban, and successfully led digital programs in six countries. Additionally, she is also on the chair of the board of trustees of the Agile Practitioners Association of Nigeria, a founder of Globally Igniting Africa, a founder and speaker at the Agile Nigeria Meetup, founder of AGILE PLUS, Founder and CEO of the Agile Advisor Nigeria Limited, and Founder and coach at Agile for MEA.
Mentioned in this Episode:
- Abiodun Osoba
- The Agile Advisor Africa
- Agile Practitioners Association of Nigeria
- AgileThought’s “Virtual Community: Agile Header Around the World” (with Quincy, Jordan, Abiodun Osoba, and other featured guests)
- Agile Nigeria Conference
- The Scrum Guide
Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]
Intro: [00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought, the podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach, and agile expert, Dan Neumann.
Dan Neumann: [00:16] Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host Dan Neumann. And today I’m excited to be joined by Abiodun Osoba. She is the CEO and founder of the Agile Advisor Africa. Abby also sits on a board of a non-for-profit that she helped form agile practitioners association of Nigeria and Abby, you describe your role as an international enterprise business agility coach, and I believe you’re also, uh, the farthest person maybe that’s joined the podcast, at least from where I’m based, uh, in the middle of the United States. So welcome.
Abby Osoba: [00:52] Thank you so much, Dan Neumann. I’m so happy to be here. Thank you for this opportunity.
Dan Neumann: [00:57] No, I’m excited. You were on a virtual community panel that, uh, was recorded and is available, um, on AgileThought’s YouTube channel, and, uh, you were there with Quincy Jordan and talking about agile around the world. And today we’re going to be exploring the topic of the role of the agile coach, specifically as it relates to agile adoption challenges and then getting individuals in the community to really embrace agility in the agile framework. And, um, you know, you’ve got some expertise in that area.
Abby Osoba: [01:31] Yes, I do. So the role in the community, um, as I mentioned to you, I play two roles. I wear two hats and, uh, one as a community leader. And the second one as maybe a commercial leader, if you allow me to use those words, a friend gave me those titles actually. And, uh, with the committee as a community leader, I started this nonprofit, uh, it’s called the agile practitioners association of Nigeria, um, myself and a group of people, uh, way back in April, 2017 was set up this organization. And basically, uh, the goal is to different our roots locally and equip individuals and organizations, uh, support them, facilitates guide them with their agile adoption, uh, agile transformation journey. And also, uh, at the same time, um, um, spread our wings internationally to gain, uh, um, support, uh, collaborate and partner with organizations, people like yourself to help strengthening the work locally and, uh, also to create awareness right, of what agile represents, uh, for the economy, uh, and what it represents for businesses and what it can do, uh, for everyone in general. So that’s pretty much what the work has been for the past three years.
Dan Neumann: [03:01] That’s wonderful. And you talk about that local support and I find even in what’s a fairly well connected world with lots of access to information, it’s still super important to have a local community and people where you have a personal relationship with them already, because some things you can Google and get those results. And then other things you really want that support of people nearby people, you know, people you trust to help sift through all the mountains of information that are available.
Abby Osoba: [03:33] That’s correct. Dan. And so just to support your last statement, I was going to say that we definitely do provide meetups, right? And we invite people locally and internationally to come talk about their journey, their success stories, uh, just shared experiences. And, uh, we run, uh, conferences and we organize, uh, free boot camps, mentoring and coaching clinics, uh, just to help, uh, people, uh, you know, individuals like this who are interested in, you know, the agile journey and the organizations gain the knowledge and information they need.
Dan Neumann: [04:10] That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful. So thank you for that contribution to the community. Let’s explore some of the challenges that you’re seeing as, as an agile coach or a business agility coach with organizations embracing the agile frameworks. And then as part of that, we’ll also get to some strategies that may, maybe people could use to mitigate some of those challenges.
Abby Osoba: [04:36] Uh, so that’s a good question. Uh, one of the biggest challenge, as you can imagine from being in Africa, uh, Africa and the Middle East, uh, share a lot of, uh, some of the same challenges when it comes to agile adoption, uh, embracing agile in any way, shape or form mindsets values principles. And the biggest challenge is, um, uh, culture, right? And, and, and, um, um, and as you can imagine, culture is a challenge everywhere across the world, but even a place whereby culture, uh, as strong as some foundational pillars, such as age, gender, religion, and as well as, uh, tribe, you know, language and so many other things that cuts across culture, it actually stifles, uh, the, uh, adoption of agile within an organization. And so a lot of organizations are very, uh, well, you know, grounded and, you know, drill down in their traditional ways and the traditional approach and what agile stands for. Uh, when we talk about collaboration, uh, we talk about servant leadership. When you talk about, uh, um, being able to express yourself, you know, being in a safe place and, you know, um, people respecting your opinion, being courageous and so many other things, then you know, that, uh, you’re, you’re in for a ride because, um, many of these things, uh, strategy, uh, has found this business at every workplace. And so it’s, it’s been, uh, the biggest challenge for an organization, you know, driving its, its team and its organization towards, uh, embracing an agile culture. Uh, other challenges are around leadership, um, leadership, uh, not being able to, uh, make a decision, uh, quickly with regards to change. You know, sometimes people focus on what they’re going to lose when they change, rather than focus on what they’re going to gain. And, and sometimes people have an illusion that it’s going to cost an arm and a leg, right. And they just hold on to that assumption. And, and, and the one other challenge I find is that, uh, people are just resistant to any form of change. And, uh, in the middle layer in the organization, like the management, like the meet management, they have this fear of losing their identity. Right. You know, most of them have been in the command and control environment whereby they lead 500 person teams and, and now agile has pumped to see, uh, the, the needs to be collaboration. There shouldn’t be somebody managing people anymore. And so those are some of the challenges I’ve seen locally here in Nigeria.
Dan Neumann: [07:34] It’s interesting to hear you talk about the culture challenges. Um, you know, I think what you’re describing is very different than maybe the reality that I experienced most of the time and here in the United States, of course, um, uh, there’s still issues of age and gender and, and, um, um, you know, we, we’ve had a lot of, of race-related, um, issues and still do in the United States, but I think what you’re describing is, um, and correct me if I’m wrong more, uh, more fractured in a way when you start to talk about tribes and languages and traditions, um, and, and some of those things that maybe are smaller groups or are more fractured, is that, is that a fair characterization?
Abby Osoba: [08:24] Yes, it is. It is, uh, this is a society whereby you know, sometimes people, some people think women or men are much more suited for certain things. And then, uh, respect like age difference is, is a very huge thing. People are big on that. They, they want to put it out there that I’m older than you. And so I deserve some respect from you. Um, and then, and then different tribes, right. Tribes have different beliefs and they bring that into the workplace. Right. So, and traditions. And so that definitely impacts a lot of things.
Dan Neumann: [09:06] Gotcha. Gotcha. And then, and then the, um, and the decision-making side you are, you’re talking about really a concern about losing positional authority, losing head count based authority, um, and maybe some of the decision-making frameworks that are in place. You know, if, if a big group is trying to decide by consensus, that’s a really difficult thing to do. Um, and so those are definitely some really interesting challenges from an agile coaching standpoint than where you’re coming into a highly fractured group of individuals. Um, you, may need to get along, but they see things very differently, or there’s a concern about losing positional authority. Um, what, what have you done that, or how would you advise somebody to navigate through a situation when they find themselves in a very fractured group or struggling with decision-making authorities?
Abby Osoba: [09:58] Um, so what I’ve done and what I would advise anyone else to do. Uh, so first of all, uh, I want to just add this small caveats that, uh, you must find this very interesting that when I relocated back, I wasn’t accepted by my own.
Dan Neumann: [10:15] Oh, interesting. And I think that’s important. So you say relocated back, you and I have talked about a little bit of your, um, geographic background, but maybe you could just share a little bit about that.
Abby Osoba: [10:25] Yeah. So I’ve been out of, uh, so I was born in Nigeria, grew up in Nigeria and then left and got married. And I, I was out in Canada, uh, for almost 20 years and then came back in 2017 and I was struggling in my role. Um, I talk, I talked about earlier on, and I, it took me a while to understand that. And, uh, I was able to, I had a conversation with a few people, and then I looked internally myself and I follow that. Whoops. Um, no one was believing in anything I was saying and because I wasn’t accepted, uh, they’re thinking to themselves that, Hmm, she, she, she doesn’t know how we do things here. She doesn’t share in our mindset. She doesn’t share in our pains and our challenges look in here. She has, well, two things would work a certain way over there. They wouldn’t work with over here. She has no idea what she’s talking about and I would lead trainings and I would cite examples. And honestly, at that time, I, I didn’t have any example. I did not have any of me working with teams, look me up. I didn’t have any example of me working with leadership in any organization and helping them walk through there, or their challenges there, are there challenges that are peculiar to this environment and handling them? And honestly, I didn’t. And so what I quickly did was I, I started to talk about the challenges I was facing, not as a professional, but as as a person. So as an everyday person waking up and going through the same challenges that they would go through. So I started to bring those challenges into, into the classroom, into my communications, into my networking. And honestly, that, that was it that did it because sometimes, and this is to answer the question you ask, people need to know that you have empathy. They need to know that you’ve walked in the same type of shoes, maybe similar. They need to definitely that’s the only time that they will trust you and you’ve listened to you and will respond well to your advice or suggestions. Right? And so that was, that was the solution. And so I use the same approach in dealing with, uh, and coping with, uh, helping organizations and teams and an agile coach in dealing with some of those challenges that they’re going through because when people are going to pay or when they are going through a challenge or a hard time, they always personalize it and they always make it look unique. But the truth is, is never like whatever it is anybody’s going through in the entire over 7 billion people, there’s nothing unique. And so, and so when they have trusted me and they knew that, okay, she understands. And then I started to tell them example that it doesn’t matter what part of the world you are in, as long as you’re a human being and blood flows through and through your veins, human behaviors as, at the same guaranteed in certain scenarios. And so I would cite those scenarios. Right. And they will find them very, very relatable and it will be like, Oh, so what did you do? And then I’ll tell them I did this. I did that. And they will be like, okay, can we try it? And voila, it would work for just the middle things. Right. And so that’s one of the ways I was able to overcome some of those challenges.
Dan Neumann: [13:41] No, that’s, that’s great. And a couple things that jumped out to me as you were describing, one was having, uh, a portfolio, if you will, of experiences to share, you know, it’s hard to, um, I think of, uh, American football or coaching American football, I would be a terrible American football coach. I’ve never played. I don’t understand all the intricacies. I don’t understand the culture. I could talk about it, but I can’t do it with authority and I don’t have those experiences. And so I love to hear, I love that you’re sharing, Hey, you know, building in a way, building some of those, that portfolio. And then you’re also talking about vulnerability and creating a personal connection. You maybe haven’t had that exact same experience, but you’ve had one, maybe that’s similar. And again, you could use that to build empathy. Um, one, one thing I think I’ve seen people do too much is what’s called competitive storytelling where, you know, it sounds like, Oh, well, you think that’s a problem. Well, here’s this way, worse problem over here that that’s not what you’re describing. You’re really talking about using story and experience to, to build that connection. And I really liked that. So, so having built some of that interpersonal connection, um, to help lower barriers to agile won’t work here, or self-organization, isn’t going to happen in our company or our culture, um, what, what else have you done then to help bring agility into organizations into Nigeria? Um, that you’d like to share?
Abby Osoba: [15:26] One thing that I think has helped over the years is the, uh, agile Nigeria conference that has been hosted by the agile practitioners. So, um, well, that’s my volunteer work. So through that practitioners, we’ve been able to reach out to a lot of, uh, experts, uh, agile practitioners, thought leaders, and so many people within the agile communities globally. And, uh, we’ve been able to gain their interests, uh, get their attention. And so they’ve been very interested in helping us and supporting our work locally. And some of them have actually even flown into Nigeria. They will tell you that there was their very first visit and they loved it. And so some of the work that has come out of those conferences, the talks, the workshops, uh, the sessions have really, really helped to drive the momentum that we’ll be looking for. And even, uh, um, because of the pandemic in 2020, we decided to run a weekly meetup to help continuously, um, help people, um, have that access to continuous learning and information to help them in the workplace. And, and the thing is that, you know, personally, I think it’s one thing for me to get engagements like, uh, contracts and help organizations work. But then they also has to be like a really big community, like a center of excellence. If you might elaborate to use that word where people can gather together, uh, beyond my expertise, beyond my knowledge, to be able to still stretch out to the world and, and learn. And so some of the things that has been, uh, that we have been able to implement over the years and, uh, um, and some of those partnerships has led to so many things, right? People have been certified, uh, memberships, worldwide discounts, uh, accesses to places that people never really thought. Right. And so there’s now been a lot of influx and involvement of, uh, the, uh, the Nigerian community Nigerians who are practitioners, like people who are outside of Nigeria or people who are locally based, being very heavily involved in a lot of work going on in the global space. Creating that platform where lots of people can contribute to it. It is going to help move, move the needle, whereas an individual doing something that doesn’t amplify results is going to be a particularly challenging path forward. I’m curious, um, when we’re talking about agility within an organization, so that’s, that’s, uh, that’s cool. So we’ve, we’ve addressed some generalities, some, uh, ways to get the message to start to be heard. And some of the ways the community is being built up to amplify effectiveness when, when you’re in an organization now, and you’re talking about, let’s say the Scrum Framework, um, you know, there are new our new roles of the product owner, the Scrum Master, uh, developers. Now with the latest version of the scrum guide, uh, we’re asking for managers to maybe take a different stance or fill a slightly different role than they’ve been used to, or maybe even a, uh, a very different role than they’ve been used to. How, um, how are organizations responding to some of those things? And then what are some of the tactics that, that you might suggest for, uh, getting more traction with some of the changes, especially in an agile adoption or, uh, specifically one involving Scrum.
Abby Osoba: [19:11] Um, so, um, how are they responding? Uh, the well they’re, um, I’m surprised as well. They are very open and they understand right now that, uh, practicing agile, there is no template. There is no, um, step-by-step how to do it. You know, learning comes from doing and continuously doing. And so they understand also that it’s very experiential and so each environment will be different and you must be open and willing to try something. So that’s what I push within my space. And, and so this behavior has allowed them to be open also about these scrum guide and the new updates. And so what we’re doing, what we’re going to be doing as a community, we haven’t started. Uh, there were so many other, um, activities lined up for the year. And so we have moved it to early next year is we’re going to be having local people. So people within who are, um, who are agile coaches, who are Product Owners who are Scrum Masters within different organization, who are going to be having the conversations, the opportunity to really deep dive and have those conversations about how they think this changes will impact them and the organization and what they intend to do individually. And so we’re going to be having this conversations early next year, and I’m looking forward to it in the interim, uh, what we, what we’re doing. Uh, my organization, my personal organization is most of my clients, uh, when I do the training and I, my workbook usually has the scrum guide. And so what we’re doing now is that we’re compiling, uh, uh, our own thoughts, our own reflections, based on the updates from the new Scrum guide, we’re gathering videos and some other reflections from other groups. And we’re packaging that information together and sharing it with our clients because most of them have like, uh, a center of excellence. And that’s where we’re going to ensure that continuous conversations are sparked, uh, early on within those organizations.
Dan Neumann: [21:21] That’s wonderful. So talking about some of the education based activities is really important. And you talked about, you know, there’s not a, step-by-step how to guide for adopting agile in an organization. And that’s something I’ve seen as a pretty significant hurdle when especially organizations are looking to engage or purchase or put in place a statement of work around agility. I get a sense, it’s easier to buy a waterfall plan that says, Hey, here’s exactly what we’re going to do for a month, three months, six months a year, whatever the duration is, they’re trying to purchase and show us exactly what you’re going to do when you come in. And, um, the easy answer is to give a very, uh, prescriptive forward-looking, you know, could look like a Gantt chart, could be on an Excel spreadsheet that has these nice little boxes that everything fits in. And the reality is that at least from my perspective, I think what you’re describing is it’s going to be an evolutionary approach. You know, we have to take advantage, um, to borrow your phrase. I think you said at one point, when we were talking, you got to take advantage of what we already have first, and we have to make some strides and efforts, uh, before he start changing things. So I’m, I’m curious if you could expand on that.
Abby Osoba: [22:43] Yes. So you are very correct. So organizations, especially very traditional organizations who are now excited and they’re like, okay, you got me. I want to go on this journey. So they, the next thing they want is they want exactly that they want like a roadmap, like a step, a step-by-step guide that says, okay, we’re going to do this. We’re going to turn left. We’re going to go, right. We’re going to jump off. And so I tried my best test if it’s a word like that, to bridge that gap. So I, I have my organization, the agile advisor, Africa, we have developed our own framework that allows us to roll out and meet the needs of clients. And so it’s not, um, a step-by-step guide. It’s more like a roadmap/framework that tells you, um, this is, this is, this is your journey. This is what’s going to look like you’re going to start here and do all this, uh, 20 activities move to the next level, finish all this activities, capture some assessments. Some measurements move on to the next, explore this, explore that. And then it has like a start and it has like a stop. And, and, and then we have a lack of support after the stop. And so that framework has always been embraced very well with, uh, the clients locally and they like that. And so some of the other things which we do, because the next question is, is agile a tool? Like, can I just play? And we always tell them no. And so Microsoft is selling Azure DevOps tool as DevOps. And you can imagine other tools and people would say, I do agile. I do DevOps. So you’re like, okay, what exactly do you guys do in your organization? Oh, we have Azure DevOps and you’re waiting for the next conversation, like the next sentence. And that’s it. So, because you have a tool you, you do at your desk, you do DevOps. They’re like, yeah. How, Oh, we has a, we have a board there. We know the Scrum board, everything is there and that’s the pain, right? That’s the pain. And these people have spent so much money. I know these tools. And, and so then, then you come along and telling them that you want them to have the experience. And sometimes I will come across some organizations who will just hire me just because they want me, I’m sorry, I will say this. Sometimes they buy JIRA, they get JIRA installed. And then that means they’re doing agile. And so they throw all those buzzwords. And when you really talk to them, you really understand that no agile practice whatsoever to, just to just spring away and turn around words and playing with tools. And then even some are really bad. They have the tools. And so they would hire my expertise or get me and my team to come on board because we will help them get the teams to start using this tool that we have invested millions in, in, in, in embedding. And so, so this falls back to maybe some of the challenges that I mentioned earlier on, but, but that’s, that’s what’s happening. And so when we roll out our framework, we always specify there that if you already have a tool, we will, the best way we’ll do is try to customize, um, uh, like, um, what you might call like a Scrum board, uh, for you like, uh, like a flow of work that would allow you to organize your work for, uh, transparency, visibility, you know, making sure that there’s a, there’s a process like a Kanban system existing, and making sure that a scrum board exists whereby you know, uh, the mindset and the behavior that people need to embrace in order to improve, uh, the agile way of working time be expressed, truly the tool they use of a tool. So that’s the extent to which we go with when we, when we set up our own framework.
Dan Neumann: [26:45] Yes. And I’ve, um, I don’t know if the, the, the marketing person at Microsoft who decided to call it Azure DevOps was an evil genius or what, but I’ve seen so many people, they, they don’t include Azure. They just call it DevOps or almost worse. They just refer to it as Azure, because then it makes it sound like this work management pipeline tool thing is all the cloud enablement technology. So just boy, they took two buzzwords. They mashed them together. And just so frustrating. Yeah.
Abby Osoba: [27:21] That person is a genius. I tell you.
Dan Neumann: [27:24] Very, very evil kind of genius for sure. Yeah. It was a, it was a heck of a branding play. Um, I appreciate that you took time to share with our listeners and with me about, you know, your, your agile experience and things going on in clients, ways to deal with some of these difficult situations. Is there, um, what would you like to leave us with as kind of a food for thought?
Abby Osoba: [27:51] Personally. Uh, this is the second thing I’m going to do with AgileThought. So I would want, uh, agile thought as an organization to be more involved in the work we’re doing in Africa. I don’t know any way, shape or form. Maybe that’s going to be discussed offline further. So that’s one.
Dan Neumann: [28:10] And because I think it would help us understand how better to engage with and make information available to a broader audience, AgileThought’s, um, business operations are in North and central America primarily, um, has a global reach of course, as to the webinar that you participated in. I think that’s, uh, an interesting provocative thought. So, yeah, we’d be interested in kind of exploring that. Some more. Not that it’s my decision, but I think, yeah, of course.
Abby Osoba: [28:48] So, but in general, um, I would say that, um, um, agile practitioners across the globe need to really represent what the preach, right? Collaboration needs to be stronger across board and inclusion. Um, diversity, all of those things is what’s really helps make the world because at the end of the day, um, we’re learning from each other and it’s a very small village like global village and, um, uh, people, um, there are still, there’s so many more grounds to cover. I can tell you that. So millions of untapped waters in Nigeria. It’s a huge marketing efforts are in the Middle East, and this I’ve done so much work, but there’s still so, so much work. And so, um, uh, the more, you know, this, this platform is fantastic. It’s excellent. And I believe it would allow me to, you know, get my voice out there and get more people on board, uh, because, uh, it doesn’t take one person, right? It takes one person to start, but it takes like a whole village of people to actually make that move. And there’s a lot of positive impacts when more people embrace agile, it just makes the world easier and next businesses and everything better. That’s my personal opinion.
Dan Neumann: [30:14] I, I love it. And, um, I’m tempted to want to add to it, but I will, I will leave that there because I think you summed it up extremely well. So, uh, I look forward to a new future. This episode will go around the new year, and I think that’s just a nice thought to have floating in the air. Um, as we’re moving into 2021 here getting, getting 2020 behind us, it’s been a mess. Well, Abby, again, thank you very much for taking the time and, and joining and I’ll look forward to future conversations.
Abby Osoba: [30:46] All right, then. Thank you so much, Dan. I appreciate you. I appreciate this.
Outro: [30:52] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast