Big room planning

Podcast Ep. 118: Big Room Planning 101 with Andrea Floyd

Big room planning
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Episode Description:

On this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by fellow AgileThought colleague and return guest, Andrea Floyd! Andrea is an enterprise agile transformation consultant at AgileThought with over 25 years of experience in software development and management. She is an innovator who has led multiple organization-wide scaled agile implementations, and she has also architected innovative solution strategies and roadmaps across many frameworks (including Scrum, Kanban, and the Scaled Agile Framework).

In this conversation, Dan and Andrea explore the topic of “Big Room Planning” — what it is, when you would use it, and how to do it. Andrea also shares the benefits of it as well as some advice on how to do it most effectively in your organization.

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Key Takeaways

  • What is Big Room Planning?
    • The “what”: Big Room Planning is for when you have a need to bring together multiple teams to collaborate and get alignment on how they’re going to work together to achieve a set of objectives and/or goals for a certain time increment
    • It is an event where you bring teams together to have a collaborative conversation and create a forecast on what you hope to achieve in a given amount of time
    • In this conversation, you identify measures and/or time frames where you can have check-ins in order to see how you’re progressing or where you need to make some shifts
    • It is called Big Room Planning because it implies you would use this technique when you are trying to coordinate across interdependent teams or teams that have a level of impact on one another
    • It’s all about coming together and being able to see potential points of intersection
    • Big Room Planning gives the opportunity for different teams to see the different challenges they are encountering and reach their destination together
  • What Big Room Planning might look like:
    • It can be as “big” or “small” as necessary
    • Though it is more beneficial to do it in person, you can use Zoom or Microsoft Meets to hold this event
    • It is a big commitment and can run from two to three days, depending on where the organization is at in your product lifecycle and your path forward
    • Other great collaboration tools: MURAL and Miro
  • The benefits of Big Room Planning:
    • The “why”: it is essential to help in achieving alignment and a shared understanding so all teams can move together in the same direction
    • It’s important to plan as a collaborative enterprise so that you can sequence work, have the necessary conversations about timing and dependencies, and make everything visible
    • This forecasted plan arms the business decision-makers with the right information, transparency, and openness to converse with anyone in the organization
  • How do you adapt Big Room Planning to “Small Room Planning”?
    • Even if you’re an individual team, it doesn’t mean that there is not a need to forecast when features are going to be understood
    • You can do this for a single team and use feature points to give an understanding of the complexity and plot them on a roadmap
  • What can make Big Room Planning more effective:
    • Roadmaps
    • Milestones
    • Program boards
    • Feature points (which can help you understand the relative effort and complexity of those features [just like when you do sprint planning and you have story points, feature points help you understand your capacity and your availability for your team/s])
    • A true commitment and investment of everyone involved is key for a positive outcome
    • It is important to understand the “what” and the “why”
    • Making everything visible so all teams can see how things are progressing
    • Establishing a working agreement is very helpful in coming up with your operating guidelines, what the outcomes you’re seeking are, and structuring out meeting times

Mentioned in this Episode:

 

Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Intro: [00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann: [00:16] Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host, Dan Neumann, and excited today to be joined by fellow AgileThinker, Andrea Floyd.

Andrea Floyd: [00:25] Hi, Dan, really happy to be here with you today.

Dan Neumann: [00:28] Glad to have you here. And also glad to have the folks that are listening here and a little request to you, the listener, which would be if you’re enjoying the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, if you wouldn’t mind hopping out to your podcast player of choice and submitting a review, that would, uh, be great feedback for us and help us to reach even more folks that would benefit from the content. So a little bit of a request there.

Andrea Floyd: [00:52] I love that it’s asking for that inspection and adaption always can get better.

Dan Neumann: [00:57] That’s right. And, uh, yeah, we’ll, we’ll take your five star review in public and if you don’t like something, you can let us, let us know about it at podcast@agilethought.com. Today’s topic is going to be about big room planning. And I know for me, big room planning is kind of burned in my mind together with the scaled agile framework for enterprises or SAFe. That was where I came across it, but let’s talk about what it is and when we’d use it and get into the topic of some somehow give folks some tips on how to do it.

Andrea Floyd: [01:32]
Love to thanks for the opening there. So very much like you said, um, I became familiar with big room planning, um, as a, uh, aspect of SAFe that I was operating and running. And so, uh, from that, uh, learn to look at what, what is that mean? You know, it’s, it’s a nice phrase that you may be hearing articulated about. Basically the what of a big room planning is when you have a need to bring together multiple teams to get alignment and to collaborate on how you’re going to work together to achieve a set, um, uh, objectives and or goals for some portion of time as some time box, uh, you may call that a program increment. You may call that a quarter. You may call it whatever time box makes sense for you and your organization. That this is an event where you come and bring teams together to have a collaborative conversation and put together a forecast for a period of time on what you hope to achieve. And it’s essential to help get alignment and a shared understanding. So you move together in the same direction and you identify measures or timeframes where you can do check ins to see how you’re progressing and where you might need to do some adaptation or, or make some shifts.

Dan Neumann: [02:55] You touched on a couple of the benefits and of alignment and a shared understanding. And for me, I think that’s one of the big challenges. If you have lots of teams that are trying to collaborate, but you don’t periodically pull them together to make sure there’s alignment, you can end up with kind of a mess with people running off in all, all manner of different directions.

Andrea Floyd: [03:19] Really good point, Dan, again, it’s called big room planning because it implies that you would use this technique when you were trying to coordinate across interdependent teams or teams that have some level of impact on one another. Uh, we can talk about if we have time in this conversation about how do you adapt big room planning to something I refer to as small room planning, where you could use it even to add some benefit, if you’re struggling with different needs at an individual team level, but for big room planning, it’s about coming together and being able to see potential pointed intersection. It’s important to, to plan it as a collaborative enterprise so that you can sequence work and you can have those conversations about timing and dependencies. You, uh, there’s different techniques to make this all visible, maybe, uh, because of the, the engagement, the initiative, the solution that you’re working towards, or the product delivery you’re working towards. You may have some really important milestones from your stakeholders or your product sponsors and owners that need to be swarmed around to hit or to know if you’re going to hit again, this is about being able to forecast, but also understand those important alignment conversations that have to happen throughout this time box together. So in this example, I’m going to call that time box a product increment.

Dan Neumann: [04:47] Okay. So a product increment being some number of iterations or sprints, or like you mentioned a quarter, a calendar quarter, uh, some general time box that teams are trying to align around and meet some shared business objective.

Andrea Floyd: [05:02] Absolutely. And, um, so normally what you might think of on average, in my experience, I see that a product increment tends to run anywhere from eight weeks to 12 weeks. And that’s where that 12 weeks can roll up to a quarter. And again, this isn’t a cast in stone, any place you can adapt it for your organizational needs. I know some organizations that I’ve worked with have aligned their increments to their fiscal quarters. So whatever that cadence looks like, uh, that brings a point to mind, a very important point here. Uh, we often need to provide some sort of look ahead so that we can, uh, provide the decision-makers with the ability to make important and impactful decisions around whether it’s investments, uh, maybe it’s people or maybe it’s, uh, strategic objectives or goals for the entire organization. So this forecasted plan enables us to arm those business decision makers with the right information to have that transparency and openness and a conversation with whomever within the organization may have some dependency or need from an outcome from, from the teams.

Dan Neumann: [06:18]
So you’re, you’re describing having stakeholders who need to make decisions about where, uh, people are invested, where dollars are invested. Maybe there are some market drivers for certain business objectives that they would want to, to target for releasing either throughout or at the end of the program increment, and then pulling all those people together to do a coordinated planning. When you say big room, how, how small is big, how big is big what’s, what’s maybe a range for, for what a big room planning might look like as far as how many people are participating.

Andrea Floyd: [06:52] Another good question, Dan. And I think I might’ve answered you one way before the pandemic and a different way, and after moving into this virtual world. Uh, the intention of, uh, originally for big room planning, again, the key is around collaboration and ideally it has been best to bring people together on a face-to-face manner to deepen that way of collaborating. And again, you know, everything’s a journey. So maybe teams have started in person when they first start their agile journey, but as they evolve, they get to where they start to use, uh, different techniques, incorporate different techniques to help care for some of the costs. Maybe it’s a lot of travel. Um, maybe it takes up time. So again, that will adapt as each organization’s on their own individual journey. Ideally, uh, again, it can be as big or small as necessary. Uh, initially when we say big room, you assume there’s at minimum, hopefully more than two, two plus 10 teams, whatever that looks like. And you’re bringing everybody together because the really positive outcomes from this collaborative effort are the conversations that happen in that big around, and they’re very impactful. And it really goes a long way to keep people connected and have a shared understanding as they progress through whatever that increment of time is. Now with the, uh, need to go many for many organizations to a virtual way. First of all, yay. Um, I think it, for us to all of us to get more comfortable with some of these wonderful tools that we have at our fingertips, and there are very creative ways to do it. I know zoom and I believe teams also have breakout rooms. That’s essential because when you do big room planning, you have times where everybody comes together and then you have time where the individual teams go off and do some focus, work within themselves to understand the, the, what, uh, how to move forward and what their plan looks like. And then you come back and you synchronize across all those teams. So those breakout rooms are a great way in a virtual world to formulate that opportunity to focus. So I think we’re going to see a dynamic shift and how these big room planning events happen moving forward again, where possible. I know personally I’ve done a hybrid where we might have been co-located if we’re in different regions. Like I had, you know, three teams in Europe, I had two teams in India. I had three teams in the U.S. And we virtually connected as it as a holistic group, but we met individually within our geographic locations and at least had some sort of hybrid experience where we could have some face-to-face.

Dan Neumann: [09:40] And that’s similar to my early introduction to big room planning. It was seven teams in, in the middle, middle of the United States and seven teams that were in India. And there were some, uh, collective times when, when people in Chicago were speaking to all the teams, all 14 teams, setting expectations, talking about goals and objectives. And then there were times when those teams were doing different breakouts. Uh, there was some disruption to, um, schedules, normal work hours on both sides of that equation. Um, but there was a lot of breakouts so that folks in India were able to, um, you know, not stay up all night to work with folks in the U.S. time zones.

Andrea Floyd: [10:25] What I really like about what you just articulated and that runs in parallel to my experience is it was important for us to have working agreements because we wanted to find that moment in time to come together, where we acknowledge our geographic differences, uh, and where we needed to come. So that all of that was a pre-conversation. And we used a working agreement to come up with, okay, what are our operating guidelines? What are the outcomes we’re seeking? So how can we structure a time and get that agreement? So we cared for each team as best as possible understanding that we had to find that sweet time to collaborate.

Dan Neumann: [11:07] Definitely. And I know we have a past episode on working agreements. We’ll put a link to that in the show notes that people can find at agile thought.com/podcast. And, um, yeah, maybe if they want to learn a little bit more about working agreements, uh, that would be great. But yeah, knowing if I’m going to be working a seven to four, schedule a seven to five schedule, um, late into the evening, it’s very important as well as how decisions get made. And when you have people surrounding the globe, you touched on so big room planning, talk about zoom, the big zoom planning. I dunno, you know, we could call it that. Um, it’s not just the, the working on the problem, solving the problem, meaning what objective, but it is that, uh, the, to meet people and, you know, when we’re in person, it would be maybe going to dinner, having lunch, et cetera, some of that unstructured time too, um, which can be done in breakout rooms, uh, potentially not quite the same as sitting down and hoisting a few beers, but, um, I guess nothing precludes that too, if people want to, um, get together afterwards for a little bit of a happy hour. So what are some ways that you’ve seen, uh, help make big room planning, more effective as far as, uh, inputs and, um, you know, those then helping achieve the outputs?

Andrea Floyd: [12:30] Well, again, this is a commitment and it’s an investment. It you’re asking sometimes for, they may run from two to three days, depending on where you’re at in your product life cycle and, and your path forward. Uh, so it is an investment of a lot of people’s time to make this a positive outcome with that comes there is pre-work that starts the day after your, your previous PI planning event. Uh, so, uh, or big room planning event. So here were some of the inputs that you also want there are living artifacts that need to be maintained because they’re used for even a broader, um, need and past just planning. So for example, you would ideally have a product roadmap. And I tend to encourage people to think about features is, is their increment of value that they’re going to be providing and delivering. And what I encourage clients to do is to organize your features and use some other techniques, which I’ll share with you. Um, one is feature points around forecasting. When do you want to get that particular feature or value created understanding the why is it tied to a key milestone for a marketing event? Is it tied to a customer commitment? So understanding the what, and then that timing need and why that timing is important. Is it, uh, something that you can achieve in a visual, such as a product roadmap. And again, it’s an evergreen dynamic artifact that should be constantly used to facilitate the appropriate conversations and decisions. In addition to that, what we look for, and everybody has a battery tools to achieve this, but we want to make, uh, alignment and dependencies between teams as visible as possible. So, uh, not only do you want to have as an input, whatever those essential milestones are. So what we’ve clearly articulated without the people who were doing the work. Okay, here’s why this is important. We’ve got to hit this date. Uh, today they can take that into their breakout sessions and actually formulate their plan of how to hit that or achieve it or not. So we can have conversations, but the outcome of that shared understanding where a feature is plotted, when will it be delivered based on that breakout session from the people doing the work is in to see how is it sequences in a need input for some other team? Is it an output that you need something else from another team? So you want to create something called a program board to visualize those dependencies and those target, uh, timeframes when you expect future delivery. Again, it enables not only the team to stay aligned, to ensure we’re having the right trade-off conversations and sequencing conversations, but it’s an important tool to share with our stakeholders and product owners so that they can help facilitate any decisions or actions they need to that’s broader from an enterprise standpoint.

Dan Neumann: [15:47] That behavior of having conversations about things and then sometimes those conversations get lost or different understandings are arrived at when people leave are a problem. And that’s where something like a program board or a dependency board, or a list list of what the milestones are. Some visible information. Radiators can go a long way because then if you do get something wrong or if it isn’t quite what somebody thought they agreed to, there’s an artifact to point back to, and for everybody to collaborate on adjusting until it matches a reality that that people can hit. I think that’s super important.

Andrea Floyd: [16:28] And I, and I think it’s so important that this again is another living document, right? We, what do we know for sure? We know things will change. We will create this forecasted plan, or some people refer to it as a planner than that. But what we do know for a fact is we’ll learn something new and it will cause us to have to take a look at and adjust and adapt to this new information and make the best decision possible. And so having that visual so that it’s kept up to date and reflects our current understanding. Again, I go back to having that alignment, having that conversation, you all, this is operating as one single team. We need to get to our destination together. And if we’re individually, as teams encountering different challenges, this just gives us the opportunity to see that I make another decision possibly about maybe how we might want to organize around those challenges differently than we initially intended.

Dan Neumann: [17:30] And I think what you described there is important in that it’s a living document. And one of the knocks that I hear about SAFe is, Oh, it’s not agile, right? It’s, you know, this the way. And lots of things can be done in a not agile way, but, uh, having these things as living documents for me, I think back to the agile manifesto, responding to change over following a plan. So yes, there’s some planning. This one happens to be big room planning and we leave with a forecast. And then when we learn new stuff, that forecast can be adjusted. So I think it’s really important that it’s not just a, you know, a Gantt chart that never changes with a little agile veneer on top of it. That’s definitely not what you’re describing here. You’re describing a much more living collaborative artifact that the teams are pointing to.

Andrea Floyd: [18:22] Absolutely. And you, you mentioned earlier about, uh, releasing. Okay. So just like any other agile frame framework, we build on a cadence and we release on demand and there’s intention to not look at these time boxes. Oh, we release at the end of this time box, like I referred to the timebox is product increment. Now that is not the intention. The intention is value can be achieved throughout the, that the program increment or the product increment. Uh, so you want to, as you would, in any other case, put that value out and into the hands of your users or your customers sooner rather than later, because we want that real time feedback. And that helps us make better choices, better decisions as we continue moving forward.

Dan Neumann: [19:11] Yeah. That’s, that’s great. Uh, what other types of inputs are helpful? I think we talked about, uh, having a roadmap, having some milestones well-refined features, uh, you know, in, in sense of Epic feature story, or maybe they’re, uh, you know, features could be more, uh, it doesn’t have to be in that hierarchy, but what are the big things that we’re calling the features that we want to get? So those are some examples. Any other inputs?

Andrea Floyd: [19:35] Yeah. One of the things I use with clients is something referred to as feature points, just like you do at the story level. And we often use the Fibonacci, the modified Fibonacci scale. And what we do is we, you build a community of people who are informed enough to understand features at a high enough level, to put some relative estimate on, in what I call feature points on each of those features. And you do it for the same reasons you do story points. Now I encourage our clients to have refined features. And ideally you would like to have enough features, primed and ready and refined for one to two program increments and, um, feature points, help you understand the relative effort and complexity of those features. So just like when you do Sprint Planning and you have story points that help you understand what’s your capacity, what’s your availability for your team or teams. Uh, and in that story point or future point relative estimation helps you understand how much work makes sense for me to try to take in. And it helps you not only answer questions for an upcoming planning event, but if you have refined features in your backlog and they, one of the components you use is future points, Oh my goodness, the power that you give w with that married to a product roadmap. Now I can tell you, Mr. Or Mrs. Business owner, this is when you could expect to see this feature again, we’re going to learn in our pointing, we’ll get better, but it allows us to do some of that forecast with some degree of understanding. So, like I said, there are so many decisions outside of this program or this team’s awareness that our business owners need to be making. Um, that strategically impact our company, our organization. I need to arm them with some data to help them answer questions from other stakeholders or business drivers.

Dan Neumann: [21:44] And by putting some kind of quantity on those feature points, it also allows them the chance to go, Whoa, I, Hey, maybe that’s not worth. If it’s really that big, it’s not worth it. Or is there something simpler we can do or all kinds of things, you know, you don’t want a stakeholder coming and going. It’s not that hard. Um, but, but you do have those aha moments where maybe they thought they were asking for something very simple. They find out it’s complex. It might not be interesting to pursue anymore. And so that number is so valuable.

Andrea Floyd: [22:19] Really? I, and it helped frame what kind of conversations should we have? And you just articulated several that you could have as you start to see this emerge. And the sooner that you can make that visible, the sooner you can have the right conversations, make some trade-off decisions. Maybe just like we do at the story level, we split things, you know, and we space them out. So we get incremental value and it helps people to start to understand who are providing those, those value propositions to the program, the stakeholders who were saying, Hey, it would really be great if for them to understand what that feels like, it’ll inform how they come forward, moving forward. It will also help them to get more creative about how can they incrementally get there and incrementally get value that leads them to their ultimate rather than this big bang mentality.

Dan Neumann: [23:10] Yeah. And I like you touched on the incremental part, one option with a really big nasty feature would be okay, let’s do part of that now let’s do the valuable part or the part that’s going to have the best market adaptation or the biggest improvement or internal operations or whatever the pieces let’s do a little bit of that. So wonderful, so roadmap, milestones features that are sized. Yep.

Andrea Floyd: [23:35] Yep. The program board should be as an output. And I just meant to mention when we were talking about virtual big room planning events, Oh my goodness. There’s such great collaborative virtual tools. Like my I’m a fan favorite of, you know, things such as Mural or Miro. Um, I’ve seen it be so impactful and these virtual events in terms of, um, making it interesting for the participants to follow along, making it collaborative and fun for people to go in and move and feel like they have mastery of their own domain. Um, and making it just easy to visualize and see so many, uh, things that are running in parallel, but you can get focused in where you need to focus in and go broader when you want to see over arching, how is the event unfolding? So I love those virtual collaboration tools.

Dan Neumann: [24:29] Yeah. And a mural, is one of them and Miro is the other. And I swear they did that just to create confusion like that. But they’re the closest things, um, that I’ve seen. They’re not terribly expensive. They’re, you know, in teens, you know, 15 ish dollars per month, they’re not terribly expensive, but they’re the closest thing that I’ve seen to post it notes on a whiteboard where anybody can figuratively walk up and throw a sticky note up there. And so you’re not constrained by the one person typing stuff into your system of record, your Azure DevOps or your JIRA or whatever, your, whatever, Microsoft project plan, however, people are coordinated. You’re not stuck with that one single gatekeeper to the information. Yeah.

Andrea Floyd: [25:17] Right. And also it provides another information radiator, how are we doing with the event? Are we progressing? Are we having the conversations are, are our desired outcomes evolving. So making that visible so that anybody can see and reference, but also get an understanding of how things are progressing and where the team’s landing is really impactful.

Dan Neumann: [25:39] Yeah. And you’ve done a nice job, uh, with putting together a board like that. And I’m thinking I could commit us to putting a sanitized version of that out, an image of it so that, uh, you know, people could get a sense for what’s on there. Cause there’s, uh, the features laid across the timeline there’s risks, issues and dependencies. Um, there’s what does it look like to get done with the PI? What is our definition of done for this planning event? And those are just some of the elements that you’ve put on that board.

Andrea Floyd: [26:08] Yeah. I love it again. It’s a great way to remind us as we go. And, um, really I think what we just echoed understanding what, outcomes must you have at the end of this event, again, significant investment of people, time, um, and energy. So be clear on what outcome you’re looking for and then how are you going to utilize those outcomes throughout, throughout that increment of time? Let’s say it’s quarterly. How are you going to reference it? Because if people don’t understand that there’s real impact from this event, it will become something that will diminish over time. So if you can articulate it and clearly make that understood, then maybe you should be seeking another alternative approach. Sort of maybe this is a good segue into little room planning just as you do this for a big room planning, let’s say your individual team. Well, does it mean that there’s still not this need to be able to forecast when maybe features are going to be understood? Certainly doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a product roadmap. So if you have that product roadmap and you have business owners and decision makers that need to know how is that value plan to be incrementally delivered, how does that feel in terms of effort and complexity? Well, guess what, you can do this for a single team. You can use feature points at the feature level to give that relative sizing and complexity understanding. You can then plot those features too, on a roadmap where you have a market need or a business need for them to be sequenced. And you can use all this information to make that visible on your backlog and those collaborative conversations. Why not get that alignment? Why not ensure you have a basic understanding or a high level understanding of not only the what, but maybe even at a high level, some of the, and how around that as an outcome from your event. So your sprint planning events are, are more effective and more focused, or you can make sure you may not have teams, let’s say per se, that you’re delivering an integrated solution with, but maybe you have teams outside your organization that you have some dependency on, okay, let’s facilize that let’s make sure we have those conversations happening and plan for. And they understand where we need them to extend their hand, to meet our extended hand, to make that handshake.

Dan Neumann: [28:32] Yeah. A lot of Scrum teams. If they’re making software, will have training departments that need to roll things out. They’ll have marketing departments that are responsible for all manner of collateral or social media or whatever is going to accompany that releases. Um, there’s tremendous value in doing some kind of forecasting. And so, uh, like you said, it could be a smaller room, big room planning, but still with those elements of, um, forecasting with some degree of confidence, knowing that things will emerge and change. Um, but certainly more than no planning.

Andrea Floyd: [29:08] Right. And having an understanding of shared milestones, why they’re important, making sure you make it visible. So stakeholders can help you have different conversations in terms of sequencing and, and, um, and the what, um, so absolutely it can be applied as a little room exercise as well.

Dan Neumann: [29:28] So Andrea, thanks for taking time to explore the, the what and the why and some of the house to big room planning as well as then some ways to take what would otherwise be big room planning and make it virtual. So using virtual rooms as well as then pairing it down for individual teams to get some of the value out of these planning activities. So thanks a ton for sharing.

Andrea Floyd: [29:51] Well, thank you. And just in closing, just like any techniques that you, any teams try, whether you’re at a program level with multiple teams or individual teams, don’t forget conduct a retrospective, find out how the big room or the litter room planning is working for you and your organization inspect it and adapt it. You can make it your own.

Dan Neumann: [30:10] Yes, definitely. Thank you for that. We typically conclude with asking what’s on your continuous learning journey. And so I will, I will ask you Andrea, what, what have you been reading these days? That’s kind of got you motivated or inspired?

Andrea Floyd: [30:25] Well, great question actually, actually a book. I, I pretty much thought I’d finished, but I have to admit, I, I was challenged to follow it very clearly and I was talking to a client and there, he started reading, turn the ship around by David Marquette and Stephen Heavy. And I thought, gosh, you know, I really struggled with that. And the person that was sharing that they were reading, who loved the book I’m going okay, why did I find it so challenging? And I don’t know if it’s a male female thing, but it, the book is set from the story, you know, of an actual, you know, ship commander and how real life experience created, how they’re going to talk about their leadership journey. And maybe it was because it got too specific from a military. And I just thought, yeah, I’m making a commitment to go back and reread.

Dan Neumann: [31:21] Got it. Yeah. I do remember. Um, yeah, it was, it was definitely a little bit, you know, Navy centric, obviously he was, he was a submarine commander. Um, for me the biggest thing that I took away and I only read it once was about intention based leadership, you know, I intended to and allowing people to do that. And I probably am due to go back through that again. There’s gotta be more than that in the book.

Andrea Floyd: [31:47] We’ll take the journey together. Okay.

Dan Neumann: [31:49] Oh, that sounds good. I’ll I’ll, we’ll do that. And then, um, I believe the next podcast after this is going to be a new person to the podcast MC Moore, one of our colleagues will be joining Sam Falco and myself. And we’re going to be talking about Scrum Masters who are new to an organization and some of the challenges and opportunities that that might present. So. All right, well, thank you again, Andrea. Until next time.

Outro: [32:17] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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