How Culture Impacts Agility

Podcast Ep. 145: How Culture Impacts Agility with Carlos Romero, Justin Thatil, and Mariano Oliveti

How Culture Impacts Agility
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Episode Description:

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by three of his AgileThought colleagues, Carlos Romero, Justin Thatil, and Mariano Oliveti to talk about different cultures and how they impact agility.

In today’s episode, you will hear about the concept of power distance and how it differs in cultures with real examples of how organizations work in several countries around the globe. These three experts also share their knowledge regarding the diverse levels of uncertainty avoidance in different cultures and how it impacts agility.

Listen on Apple Podcasts

Key Takeaways

  • Different cultures and their tendencies
    • Power distance is the degree to which the people who are called “lower” on the ladder expect there to be a gap between them and those who are higher on that ladder
    • Power distance varies in different countries
    • If there is a high power distance in an organization, modeling challenging behaviors is a good way to shorten the gap
    • Encouraging experimentation on the team is another way of reducing the power distance
  • Uncertainty avoidance talks about “a truth”, a “right way of doing something” in some cultures which results in avoiding uncertainty
    • One clear way to determine if a team is trying to avoid uncertainty is that developers can take a long time to do their work, as a consequence of trying to go through every detail instead of seeing the overall structure
    • A spike is useful for those cases when a team is not sure if something will work, someone builds something quick and just tries it out, being an efficient way to alleviate uncertainty
  • Diversity matters
    • Building empathy in the teams to encourage respect for different approaches and tendencies
    • Applying agile and Scrum values consistently is necessary
    • Don’t focus on the problem itself but rather on coaching the people

Mentioned in this Episode:


Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Intro: [00:03] Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach, and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann: [00:17]
Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host Dan Neumann. And today I have the pleasure of joined by not one or two of my AgileThought colleagues, but I’ve got three cool folks here and we are going to be exploring different cultures and how cultures impact agility. I’m joined by Carlos Romero, Justin Thatil, and Mariano Oliveti. Thank you guys for joining today. So I have I was born in the United States, grew up mostly in the upper Midwest in brief forays outside of the country. You guys have a much more varied background than I do. So let’s briefly have you introduce yourselves and, and a little bit about your, your background with agile and cultures and let’s start with Carlos.

Carlos Romero: [01:06] Sure Dan. My name is Carlos Romero and I have been working with agile for about 11 years. I was born in Mexico city. My to give you a brief background. My mom is from Chicago. My dad is from Mexico city. So I’ve lived in both places, worked in the states for most of my life. Went to college in Indiana, have master’s degree in information and communication science currently live in Mexico city and I’m fully, fully bicultural and bilingual. And that’s the, those are the basics.

Dan Neumann: [01:48] Awesome. Thank you, Carlos. And Justin, how about you?

Justin Thatil: [01:51] Sure. Yeah. My name is Justin Thatil. So I’ve been in the agile world for over a decade now. Born in Paris to Indian immigrant and parents. So I’ve lived in Paris for most of my childhood and did my schooling there and moved in my teens actually from Paris to Florida south Florida. That was a culture shock of course. And you know, my career has been in the US I did graduate from you know, Florida and of course a computer science degree career, mostly in the U S with, I’ve been fortunate enough to work with teams across the world. And in some countries I wouldn’t have to mention India, China, Australia, Sweden, Hungary, Dominican Republic, Columbia, Mexico are all members that I have interacted with, and it’s been awesome. And now I’m being part of a company where we’re very diverse. You know, it’s been a very nice as well.

Dan Neumann: [02:45] And thank you, Justin. Appreciate that. And Mariano last, but certainly not least.

Mariano Oliveti: [02:51] Thank you Dan. So my name is Mariano Oliveti. I’ve been in the agile world for quite a few years now, a difference capacity and obviously involving different frameworks. I was born and raised in Argentina. Therefore my accent lived in Brazil, Portugal friends, and obviously the US right now where I’m based. And you know, we’re with teams with the global footprint before global footprint was a thing. So I’ve seen a few different behaviors that were several sort of all of them that were interesting for sure. Things that we can learn from all of them.

Dan Neumann: [03:30] That’s wonderful. Thank you. Yeah. And there are so many different groups, obviously a lot of teams are based in India, Brazil, Russia, India, China called like the brick countries for outsourcing and obviously lots of different cultures involved. It can be kind of tricky to start talking about cultures and kind of do it in a way where we’re not using over generalizations. Every individual is different of course, but, but different cultures can tend to show different behaviors, right? Americans certainly have a reputations for certain behaviors that the rest of the world looks at and goes, huh, those guys are odd over there. So but what I want to use as a framework for some of our conversations is a person named Hoffstead, who did some some study, some academic analysis of different cultures and their tendencies. And at least the first one that I became familiar with was his concept of power distance. And for those folks who maybe aren’t familiar with power distance, it’s the degree to which the people who are lower on on the, the ladder, if you will, the lower folks expect there to be a gap between them and those that are higher on that ladder. And so it’s really the governed and their expectation of being governed. So there’s an example of that he would use so some middle Eastern countries, Saudi Arabia, very high power distance, where there’s an expectation that the people at the top are distantly at the top. Malaysia is one of the countries that, that he fits into that category different from then, if you go down near the bottom, Austria has an extremely low power distance and the United States is somewhere in the middle. So again, in Austria, people who are governed tend to be similar in, in power, let’s say to those that are doing the governing. And so I just kinda wanted to ask for some reflections from folks on how you might see power, distance manifesting itself, maybe with teams that you’ve worked with. And let’s, let’s start and kind of go around the other way. So Mariano you are you’re last on the introductions. Is this concept of power distance, does it resonate with you much? And have you seen examples of it reflected in agile teams?

Mariano Oliveti: [05:59] Yeah. For sure. So I’ve seen it quite a bit in, in, you know, different cultures that are very much big believers in hierarchical structures, right? From where you see, you know, that the culture itself, he set up in a way that they assessed either the respect, their elders, or the respect, a political structure, and those are just beliefs that are embedded in the society more than anything else. And that translates into their agile teams. With that said, as we probably know that probably has a little bit of influencing command and control behaviors or on the team behavior itself also expecting direction all the time instead of being self-organized. So that doesn’t mean that it’s all across the board, but you see some of those tendencies, like if you’re actually expecting somebody to give you direction you have less of a will to go seek for, for what would become a self-organized team and things of that nature. I mean, I’m happy to expand, but I would just like to understand, for example, what Justin and Carlos have experienced as well.

Justin Thatil: [07:07] Yeah. I’d agree with him Mariano, the number of teams especially, you know, reading Austin’s work and the, the power, the index that he’s got right next to the different countries. I was actually trying to associate myself with the countries that I had firsthand experience. And so, you know, I grew up in France and my family being in India that it constantly visited the, the culture, the respect that you allude to a hierarchical structure. And, and I like how he mentioned, you know that the society’s level of inequality is endorsed by both the followers as much and as much by by the leaders. Right. And, and it’s true. For me personally, you know, growing up in France, going through their education system, the cultural norms, there’s the sense that you have to respect those that are seen as wiser, they’ve got more experience and things. So it’s, it’s questionable for you to, as the younger person or, you know, less experienced person to question that. Right. So that’s, that’s very true in a lot of these cultures where the notion that you’re going to challenge someone of authority or, or elder is of second nature. So how does that impact our teams? The teams, numerous teams I’ve been on with, you know, this kind of dynamic you know, you, you’ve got a Product Owner or a business stakeholder involved on the team and they may have an idea being presented. And the likelihood of that being challenged from folks that have this mindset is you know, to a different degree of not going to happen unless you encourage it. Right. So one of the ways that I try to encourage it as being the model behavior as a Scrum Master, Hey, we can, as a group challenge, thinking of propose challenges, challenging thinking, you know, for the greater good, right. And as, as folks realize, Hey, it’s actually okay for me to do this. When I initially thought that it’s not, then you start seeing that behavior start changing on the team, but it does take time. So I love that we’re discussing this, you know, it’s bringing awareness that, you know, we have this dynamic that we had to be cognizant of when we are working with the local teams.

Dan Neumann: [09:37] And so challenge, I’m sorry modeling the behavior of a challenge. I think I’d be curious to know if there are some more or less appropriate ways to model that behavior from, from what you folks have maybe seen. And I don’t know, Carlos, maybe, maybe something comes to mind for you or, or, or any of you really, but, so if it’s a high power distance organization or culture, are there ways that new ideas can be shared to be more, more receptive?

Carlos Romero: [10:12] I can give you a parallel, just stepping back for a second. A parallel example, for example I’ve also worked with teams all over the world. But I can give you the best example probably is between US and Mexico and giving you a parallel example. So the US is the low power distance, it really is and Mexico is high powered distance country. And so we’re also, as my colleagues are saying you respect what older people, what elders or older folks with experience are saying with higher ranks, then you are saying managers are saying, so you’re you don’t question what they’re saying. They will tell you what to do. You will be you will be micromanaged in most cases. And and that, that’s just the way that I’ve seen things work in Mexico. So my experience as a Scrum Master when I came to a project down here was that when I, when I started working with a team and I explained to baseline them and I said, all right, guys, well we we’re a team. And you’re a Scrum Master, your servant leader. And, and well, they treated me like a manager and they expected me to give them direction to tell them what to do to tell them what the, what the objective was, what the goal was. What the definition of done was everything that we were supposed to do or a Scrum team is supposed to do as a team. They expected for me to have all the answers. So for me, it was it was very interesting because I had to, so I struggled. I mean, I struggled and I had to move in very slowly given that I didn’t have a lot of time in the, in the project. You can’t move very slowly, but I explained these to upper management, upper management didn’t quite understand that either they, they said of course you got, you have to tell them what to do. And so I had to not only explain to them and educate them on the agile, what agile was, but also what Scrum was. And in, in, in a context that they would understand it culturally as well that wouldn’t that, that wouldn’t interfere as much with, with their culture and with the team. It had to be something that I had to reinforce every day, every day, every day, that they were not disrespecting me that they were not that it was okay to do that they were still disciplined and that they were doing the right thing by questioning me in questioning the, the Product Owner and questioning their bosses that that was allowed. And they started doing it finally after like six months. So it does take a lot of effort to, to do that. And anybody, especially in our company that we have we have by, well, not even bicultural teams, we have because even in Latin America, we have different sub cultures in, in every, every country in Latin America has its own. I mean, we have the same roots but we have different customs. So we we even have to be, be careful with that. And in mindful of that, so we have to learn these things so that we can work together as efficient teams and communicate correctly with, with everybody.

Dan Neumann: [14:41] Sure. No, no, thanks for sharing that. And you mentioned Scrum and agile, and I’m sure our listeners know Scrum as a framework and agile is a set of values and principles. I’m kind of curious to get you talked kind of a theme that came through here was reinforcing into almost giving permission or modeling the behavior. So when there’s a high power distance, how might you get the agile principle of the best architectures requirements and design emerge from self-organizing teams in high power distance, maybe where they’re expecting to be given the architecture, the requirements, the design. So kind of, are there some, some ways to encourage people leaning in to borrow that phrase of leaning into helping those things emerge?

Carlos Romero: [15:33] I can tell you that the way that I did it was by reinforcing it every day and saying, come on, guys don’t expect an answer from me or from the, from the bosses because this was not a consulting project. This was an internal project. And I said, I told them, don’t expect the business the business need to be there, but don’t expect for them to give you the solution for it. We have to come up as a team with with the technical solution. So let’s think about it. Let’s, let’s go through it. We have to sit down with a Product Owner and he has, he’s the, he’s the expert of, of the, the business side. And so he’s gonna know what hopefully what, what they, what the business wants and needs. And we are going to, we’re going to provide him with that solution. He’s not going to tell us by any means, from a technology perspective, what we’re going to provide to him, you guys are going to provide that solution to him. And they were very surprised, but they understood it and became very happy that they have that that they were empowered to provide a solution, not just to be given, Hey, develop this module. You’re going to do it this way, install this on your machine. You’re going to work with with the clips or you’re going to work with with and any kind of, any kind of tool. Install it and start programming here. Here you go. Here are your requirements. And there you go program this, and have it ready in a month.

Justin Thatil: [17:28] Yeah. I was going to say exactly. I think that you were going there then encouraging experimentation right on the team. Hey, it’s okay. To experiment and fail, you know, with agile, where we’ve got the ability to pivot and we learn inspecting adapt. Right. So encouraging experimentation, Hey, it’s okay to come up with a suggestion. We may realize that it’s not the right one and that’s okay. We learned something and now we move.

Carlos Romero: [17:54] Right. That’s, that’s exactly more that that was coming from from those values. Yes.

Mariano Oliveti: [18:00] It will take a lot of courage for those kinds of teams, because they might’ve been jaded from past experience in regards to of, Hey, you know, you either, you don’t have the forum to be able to make a suggestion or you’re not heard, or you just don’t have the ability period to do that. So it’s going to take them a lot of courage to come out of the shell and experiment freely. So pair with that, there needs to be a permission to fail, fail fast, and understand that it’s okay to do so. Because otherwise it’s going to be, like you said, it’s going to be very difficult to get them out of their shell and try to experiment something, unless there’s permission to fail, you know, from the beginning.

Carlos Romero: [18:41] And I gave it to them. I said, you’re not going to get it right the first time, the second time. Well, what are we going to give our what, what are we going to give our bosses? And I said to them, well, you’re going to give them a, a first try a second try, and then you’re going to get it. We’re going to get it right the third time. You’ll see, we’ll get it right. But first we have to get, we have to get through a couple of Sprints so that so that we can get, so we can adjust certain areas and see how, how much we can do and balance out our our maturity and our skillset within the team. And then we will know how much in what we can, what we can deliver each sprint, which as you know, is a block of is a block of time. In this case, it was two weeks that we delivered a working product and they saw that we could, and then they were encouraged. And we continued that way until we, we finished the, that the, the full application.

Dan Neumann: [20:12] I think you, you touched on another facet of some of the work that Hoffstead did, which is a concept called uncertainty avoidance. And basically the very short version of that is there is, there is a truth, there’s a right way to do it. And in some cultures, they avoid uncertainty quite a bit. And other cultures are lower on that threshold of uncertainty avoidance. So a couple of countries up near the top of his list to Greece, Portugal, Guatemala, Uruguay down at the bottom of the list, so more comfortable with uncertainty, Singapore to make a Denmark Sweden in the US is pretty near the bottom on that list as well. I’m kind of curious about facets of agility, right? So we talk about inspect and adapt and fail fast. And in a lot of these things that can feel very uncertain, whereas in gated highly predictive waterfall kind of ways we would do requirements and design and pretend like we’re managing the risk out that way. And so I’m kind of curious how you have seen this uncertainty avoidance maybe present or not present in teams you’ve worked with kind of, regardless of country.

Mariano Oliveti: [21:32] Yeah. I can tell you one thing, it comes very, very clear to mind. That’s what I actually reached my hand test too, to see if I could go first one clear way to determine if there’s a team that is trying to avoid uncertainty is refinements might take forever because they’re trying to get every detail in every story, instead of just picking up the value and the structure, just to give them guidance. The developers are trying to get the absolute detail just to do A, B, C, D E, check mark done as opposed to, Hey, just tell me what the business value is. Let may be creative with a limited percentage of solution that might work. So that for me has been very clear, a very clear give away that there’s, that can off behavior that is coming up. Not only do we reform it, but literally everywhere, but it’s very pressing from that sole event. But anyways, just giving you my 2 cents on that end.

Justin Thatil: [22:32]
Yeah. Thanks Mariano. So certainly avoidance feeling like this is something we deal with constantly refinements taking long failure, or the lack of wanting to commit to things even comes out on teams. I’ve seen just from the sheer notion that the business stakeholder, Hey, I’ve got to run this proposal, if you will, to my higher up before we can commit to it. Right. so things like that comes through. And if, you know, from, from my perspective, this is regardless of the country or culture happens everywhere.

Dan Neumann: [23:09] I think what something that comes to mind, I’d be curious to get Carlos his thoughts in just a second as well. When there’s a lot of uncertainty, there’s different approaches to one is to, oh, somebody else has to decide and hand me the requirements and hand me the design, hand me, my favorite one kind of a more agile method is to build it. Like that’s where the term spike gets used. A lot of different ways. Some of which I think are right and some are wrong, but a spike is great for, we don’t know if this’ll work, let’s build something quick and dirty and ugly and find out, then throw that bad boy away. And it’s not sprints of work. It’s literally a day, two days, but, but you want to get the uncertainty out by proving that it’s gone, unlike my waterfall management days, which would be, we’d put it on a risk register, we would track it. We would have a percentage and an impact in, or whatever. And we keep that thing like a pet for the entire project, instead of let’s find out somebody go build something quick and drive it out. So kind of different ways of maybe trying to alleviate uncertainty and Carlos, I’d be curious, your thoughts.

Carlos Romero: [24:21]
Yes. I can talk about a couple of experiences that I’ve had if the, the way that I have done it down here and that I’ve experimented is two-fold. That the, the way that I was able to work with it was creating something that worked in, let’s say one sprint and show it to the, to the higher ups and say, Hey, look, this, this, this works. And before even that happened, speak with the higher ups with, with with upper management and say, we’re going to try this. And we’re going to show you that this works rather than go through all this paperwork or through 15 people. And and, and the, my, my boss at my client boss going to this falls and him going through his boss, just a very carefully and diplomatically going to their boss, which was the sponsor and saying look Roberto, we’re going to have, we’re going to have a sample, I would say of this to you by next week, by, by the end of this sprint, which by that time he knew what a sprint was. And so that you can see that it’s doable and it’s work. It’s just going to be this framework, but you’re going to see that it’s working. And he would say, okay, well, let me see that it works. And, and then he saw that it works and he then became relaxed and, and saw that it could be solved that way.

Dan Neumann: [26:12]
That’s great. Yeah. So showing some evidence of it as a way of driving out uncertainty. Hoffstead has several other dimensions. And, you know, for the sake of time, we’re not going to be able to go into all of those. He, he introduced this concept of long-term orientation masculinity, and some others, but maybe without going into the specifics, I think it would be unusual in today’s project teams to, to have a homogenous team where everybody is largely identical. You know, you’ve got even within the country of all the different backgrounds, you have different perspectives. Some people on the team might come from regulated industry backgrounds, and they’re going to want more documentation and proof and validation. Other people might be coming from former startups where it’s much more wild west experiment, freewheeling type of behavior. What are some ways that you guys have seen for building empathy, for different approaches within the teams, so that they are kind of respecting the different cultures perspectives, tendencies, how do you, how do you go about helping those teams form?

Justin Thatil: [27:28] I think it’s understanding the value. You know, that that perspective brings in to the dynamic of the current team that you’re part of, right? So if there’s, you know, a mix of a startup oriented experiment oriented team members, and we have the other extreme, which I’ve seen on a team where, where we have, you know, senior individuals versus a more fresh out of college type individuals that love to experiment and try new things, the team starts learning that there’s value in, on from both sides. Right. And so sharing that, you know bringing that to light on a, on a team’s perspective, Hey, since we took the time to document and deep dive and plan, we were able to avoid such and such situation from occurring on the team versus, you know, the other dynamic is, Hey, if we had tried this, it would have taken us a day or half a day to try this out and see if it fails or it works. And then there’s value there. Right? So depending on the, the particular dynamic, the project that you’re on, the team that you’re on, what you’re trying to collectively achieve as a team, both situations can come to a benefit, right. So it’s really allowing the team to assess both ends and see what works is the thing is what I’ve seen work out best.

Dan Neumann: [28:55] Carlos, have you done anything kind of for a, sorry, go ahead, Mario. I was going to ask if you’ve done anything kind of formal to help create some of that empathy or to give some transparency, but please.

Mariano Oliveti: [29:05]
Yeah, I think of that. So part of the things that I do is and, and I might go just a little bit off track just for a second, but I always focus on people and interactions over procedures and tools 100% of my day because I’m a true agilist at heart, right? So I do focus a lot on the values and the principles of agility in a time. I just narrow it down just to Scrum values, which are different than from the agility values. Right? So, but I they’re simpler to, to adopt if you will, because you have commitment, courage, openness, focus, and respect. Those are five Scrum values. But regardless of the cultural rainbow that you might have, the cultural composition that you might have in a team, it’s all about the people, right? So I, it’s not that I neglect their background. I just try to encourage to the team to develop their own atmosphere, their own safe space to talk and discuss openly. Right? So there you have openness at times you’re going to take them a lot of courage to open up, give their opinion, but I encouraged that on a daily basis. And again, I usually don’t focus on the problem itself. I focus on coaching the people because then they have the ability to focus in and solve the problem on their own. That’s what I usually typically do without really neglecting their background. I just think on dynamics and, you know, just a beginning powering the team on a daily basis, reinforcing that they’re capable, reinforcing, trying to get them to be self-organized. And, and again, it’s just a, it’s just bringing them up to a different state of awareness that they might have not been there before. And then obviously they can tackle the problems, whatever given problem there is out there on their own, but as a team, if that makes sense.

Dan Neumann: [31:02] I want to take a second as we get to the closing part here to appreciate Carlos, Justin Mariano, you folks joining to talk about culture, and it just really scratched the surface on how these very diverse teams, global teams, and a lot of cases bring with them different tendencies and some ways to kind of explore and embrace that as, as agile teams. So I’ll ask for some closing thoughts and Carlos, why don’t you go ahead and, and lead us off?

Carlos Romero: [31:29]
Sure. I’d like to, just for people to be aware that whoever it is, whether you’re in states whether you’re in north America, which is from Canada to Mexico to be aware in, in central America, south America, that we all have different customs. So be cognizant of that. So if you were in states and you were brought up in the states, be cognizant that a group in Mexico may have a different way of of working and, and they will, they will not respond right away, but there are ways of bringing their personality styles, their talents out, but you know how to do this and this part of culture and your worldview will expand quite a bit. And we need that at our company because we are basically in the whole continent. So if we are cognizant of this, we’re even going to be more successful because we’re going to be better communicators amongst each other.

Justin Thatil: [32:45] Thank you, Carlos. So Justin speaking you know, wanted to thank the three, four of us here you know, agreeing to discuss this topic and I’m bringing awareness was one of our goals or call us talking about, but one of the beauties of in our world, especially in the U S here, we always hear about diversity, right? Diversity at work, and, you know, cause there’s there’s benefit to it. Right. And what we touched on today is embracing, you know, raising awareness to embrace our differences, some ways to think about it differently, right? As you think about each team member on your teams, right. Bringing empathy to each person and, and, you know, and, and that, that creates the beauty of, you know, the, the diverse aspects and, and tots and creativity that comes from a team right. This country. Like I’m proud to be part of the U S one of the founding principles of this country is all cultures coming up and melting together, creating a beautiful country. Now, where the way I see the world turning towards is we’re recreating that in a global aspect with, by using the internet, right. And companies like agile, where we’ve got north America, central and Southeast, all of us working together to, for the greater good, you know? So I hope we achieve that as a group. Thank you guys for listening.

Mariano Oliveti: [34:15] And to piggyback, I think Justin, to piggyback on what you and Carlos were saying not only just to bring empathy, you know, every single team probably right now has a global footprint. And, and obviously that comes with, with a lot of getting to know the people that actually are participating in those teams, their background, understanding their ways and behaviors in, in how they go about putting together a team with, again, different believes in, in in, in a different belief system altogether. I think I will always honing into the agile principles and values supported by Scrum values. I mean, if you’re doing Scrum and if now they’re still good to have but just bring those up. And, and again, my focus on people and interactions over processes and tools are, have always benefited me in particular in terms of just getting to know the people that I’m working with, getting them to know each other in fostering that collaboration, that regardless of where you’re from, or your belief system, if you’re hierarchical, if you’re collaborative you can still build that you know, bubble of culture within your own team to sustain again, collaboration in time moving forward. So again, I think it’s, it’s not easy and takes a lot of coaching. And at times like Carlos was mentioning at the beginning of time, you can even take mentoring the right, showing them the ropes, showing them the way, but there’s always room for improvement. No matter what team you’re in, no matter what cultural background they bring to the table. So thank you, Dan. Thank you, Carlos. Thank you, Justin, for allowing me this opportunity to participate in this, in this, in this podcast. I appreciate that.

Dan Neumann: [35:59] Oh, no. I appreciate you guys taking on a topic that admittedly I, I think there’s lots of bad ways to, to try to talk about cultures and I really appreciate you guys taking out what is admittedly, a, a tricky topic, you know, how do we navigate cultures yet respect individuals and create teams where they can do some awesome stuff. So thank you very much for taking some time and exploring this with us.

Outro: [36:32] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at

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