Podcast Ep. 75: Lean & Agile Portfolio Management with Quincy Jordan

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Episode Description:

In today’s episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by his colleague and return guest, Quincy Jordan. Quincy is a principal transformation consultant and agile competency lead who has been with AgileThought for just over two years. Prior to AgileThought, Quincy was the transformation lead for Pivotal’s Atlanta office, where he consulted with clients to help them reach enterprise scale. Quincy also served as a principal consultant and agile coach at SCRUMstudy.com for over six years.

In this episode, they’re discussing portfolio management: They’ll shed some light on Lean and agile portfolios in particular, as well as how portfolios fit into agile ways of working and how it could help. Many times, agility is thought of as team practices or activities that go around the team. And yet, there’s a lot of disruption and a lack of clarity that can happen when the higher-level contacts around those teams aren’t set. And frequently, that vision and strategy are being set at the portfolio level. So in Dan and Quincy’s discussion today, they’ll provide actionable advice around how to keep the communication clear and transparent, share key takeaways around the sustainability of the portfolio, and explain how to add agile or Lean components to portfolio management.

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Key Takeaways:

  • How to add agile or Lean components to portfolio management:
    • Make sure that alignment is there (when you don’t have alignment from the portfolio level, you run into a lot of challenges around teams not being clear about why they’re doing the work that they’re doing and the overall vision)
    • Capture the vision through a framework (like OKRs) to add clarity
    • Make sure that alignment is created and that there is a concise, clear vision that everyone can execute on
    • Ensure that the team knows where the organization is going (so that they know what the goals are beyond just delivering on a project)
    • Good alignment from the top-down is critical
    • You don’t want to spend time on products that are not going to bring value, so the portfolio of products needs to be constantly reprioritized and reevaluated
    • Make sure that the team is not putting emphasis or focus on products that are not bringing value to the portfolio of products
  • Ways to keep communication clear and transparent:
    • Once alignment is established and everyone understands what the vision is, you then have to make sure that everything/everyone is very transparent about them
    • Establish good, clear and frequent communication
    • Potential downfalls with portfolio management and agile transformations: Forgetting to communicate on a frequent basis with those on the ground who are helping to bring this vision to pass (when people aren’t clear on the “why,” they don’t have as much of an invested interest in the outcome)
    • Make sure communication is flowing both ways
    • Value mapping can be a valuable method for making the value creation visible, which improves communication and understanding
    • Within a portfolio of products, you can use Kanban boards, which show all of the products within that portfolio that are in flight and all of the teams that are supporting those products (they’re also highly visible to all the teams, and it’s a nice transparent way for people to see how their team fits into the bigger picture)
  • Key takeaways around the sustainability of the portfolio:
    • Within the portfolio, you want to make sure that you’re looking at the cross-team dependencies and using an appropriate model that will allow the management of the portfolio to be sustainable
    • To make things sustainable, you need to look at what the post-transformation sustainability and what the overall sustainability model looks like
    • Conduct change in a series of “push and let go”
    • Have a portfolio combined of different horizons (reference the “Three Horizons Method”)
    • You don’t want to spend so much time keeping the lights on that you end up being a “Blockbuster video” (i.e. remember to look ahead at Horizons 1 and 2 as referenced in the “Three Horizons Method”)



Mentioned in this Episode


Quincy Jordan’s Book Pick:

Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and not completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar]

Intro [00:03]: Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host, coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann [00:16]: Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner. I’m Dan Neumann and today I’m joined by colleague Quincy Jordan and we’re going to be talking a little bit about portfolio. How are you doing, Quincy?

Quincy Jordan [00:26]: Good. How’s it going Dan? Happy to be back.

Dan Neumann [00:29]: Going well, thank you. Yeah, so we had a person on LinkedIn, her name was Sabina, mention that if there was an opportunity within the podcast to shed some light on Lean or agile portfolio as well as how portfolio fits into agile ways of working and how it could help, um, she’d like to hear about that. And so that’s the path that we’re going to go on together. So we’ll go on that journey.

Quincy Jordan [00:54]: Awesome. Sounds good.

Dan Neumann [00:56]: So, um, a lot of times agility is thought of as, as team practices or activities that go around to the team. And yet there’s a lot of disruption, a lack of clarity that can happen when the higher level context around those teams isn’t set. And a lot of times that that vision and strategy is being set at the portfolio level.

Quincy Jordan [01:19]: Yeah, absolutely. There is. Um, so, you know, when I think about, you know, how does portfolio management really just in general work, but then also how you add, you know, an agile and Lean component to it. Uh, you know, one of the very first things is making sure that the alignment is there. Um, and when you don’t have that alignment there from the portfolio level, uh, that trickles down. Uh, I mean, you really run into a lot of, you know, challenges around, uh, folks not really being clear on why they’re doing the work they’re doing. You know, what the vision is. Uh, really just, you know, where they’re headed, you know, where the company’s headed, where the organization is headed. And so some of the things that I’ve seen that, uh, really kind of work wonders and are really beneficial are OKRs. Um, so you know, as we know, OKRs are some of the, they’re valuable but they’re also part of the latest, you know, kinda hype thing as well. Um, so a little bit of that, you know, going on out there at the same time, but that doesn’t actually take away from the effectiveness of OKRs and uh, and making sure that the vision is really clear. But you know, I don’t want to sound like I’m trying to sell anyone on OKRs because I’m not, what it’s really about is making sure that alignment is created and that there’s a vision that is really concise and clear that everyone can execute on.

Dan Neumann [02:59]: Yeah. Actually, so I’m going to shamelessly plug, I reached out to Phillipe Castro who has authored on the topic of OKRs and just recently released a keynote that he did on how to avoid OKR fake news. And he’s going to be a guest. And in talking about that, cause he’s seen all kinds of badness happened with OKRs and he’s, he’s kind of railing against it cause like you said, it’s, it’s become a en Vogue. It’s, it’s a bit of hype around it. Lots of people talking about it, you know, cause Google did it and so everybody’s got to do it. And, uh, so he’ll be on here as a guest. And so we’ll, we’ll go deeper on, OKRs actually probably shortly around this one, I think, uh, thinking of when we’re recording this and when that’ll go out, these might go up fairly close to each other. So stay tuned. Um, and, and so whether you use OKRs or not, it’s important that the teams kind of know where the organization’s going so that they know what the goals are that they’re trying to achieve beyond simply delivering a project.

Quincy Jordan [03:58]: Correct. And so, you know, one of the benefits to having, OKRs though is the KR, you know, so those key results. So it actually, uh, it’s really good for success measures to be outline, uh, but not overkill. Um, I’m not a big fan necessarily of KPIs. Uh, sometimes I feel like they’re a little bit overkill and I feel like they’re more internal versus really external in terms of, uh, what they really measure. Uh, but you know, again, you know, as we’re talking about portfolio management and agile and Lean, you know, it’s all about starting with good alignment from the top down. Some things can be from the bottom up, but the alignment and where it’s in house established needs to come from, uh, from the top.

Dan Neumann [04:49]: Yeah. And, and where I see that alignment adding a lot of value is thinking about the principle of either, um, maximizing the amount of work not done from an agile standpoint. So what, what shouldn’t we be focused on? Or when there are conflicting priorities or decisions that teams need to decide where they invest their energy, they’re aligned on what were the most important place for that is going to be.

Quincy Jordan [05:14]: Yup. Yeah. And I couldn’t agree more. It’s uh, so hopefully I won’t get in trouble for this, but you know, there’s this term that I kind of use or a phrase called being agile anorexic. And, um, a lot of organizations, you know, they’re, they want to be Lean and where, and when we’re talking about, well, how does Lean fit into the portfolio? Well by definition, Lean is a removal of waste, right? So, you know, when we’re talking about, like you said, maximizing the amount of things not done. And so you really wanting to basically don’t spend time on things that are not valuable, you know, when it comes down to it. Um, and so that also comes into play with at the portfolio level as well. Um, you don’t want to spend time on products that are not going to bring value. So, um, the portfolio of products needs to be constantly prioritize, reprioritize, reevaluated. Um, and you know, there is a domino effect to that as well because there are teams, you know, behind those products. Uh, and so there has to be a lot of careful thought and consideration that goes into it. But yeah, when, when I’m thinking about lean and portfolio and, and how all of that comes together, it just really puts me in the mind of, well, let’s make sure that we’re not putting emphasis or focus on products that really are not bringing value to the portfolio of products.

Dan Neumann [06:39]: That makes sense. So imagine if you will. Now we’ve got some, uh, some vision created, some OKRs identified. Now they’re useless unless people are able to action those, they know what they are, they’re internalizing them. And so let’s explore kind of ways to do that communication, keeping it clear.

Quincy Jordan [06:57]: And so I’m glad you mentioned that. You know, as well as far as communication because, so let’s say once the, uh, alignment is establish and uh, we’re, we’ve established why we’re really moving towards true business agility. Um, we’ve established what a division is that we’re going to fulfill. Well now we need to make sure that we’re being very transparent about those things and we have good, clear and frequent frequent communication. Uh, I can’t stress that enough of, of having that frequent communication. One of the big downfalls that I’ve seen quite a bit with portfolio management and especially in agile transformations and the overall agile space is, uh, leadership. They’ll have a really good idea as to, you know, what they’re doing, the actions they’re taking, why they’re doing those things. Uh, you know, within a portfolio, maybe even slightly beyond that one portfolio of products. But they kind of forget to communicate that on a very frequent basis so that, uh, you know, those that are on the ground and helping to execute on those things. Helping to bring this vision to pass, uh, really understand, you know, why they’re doing what they’re doing. Um, and when that does not happen, uh, that’s when you start having hands on keyboards that are basically nine to five hands on keyboards. And I’m just coding and I’m just doing what I was told to do. But I don’t really have a good understanding as to why I’m doing any of this. I don’t really understand how the work that I’m doing ties into specific business outcomes. Um, and when people are not clear about those things, they don’t have as much vested interest into the outcome of that. So it’s really important to make sure that the teams that doing the work really understand in a clear and give an opportunity to even ask questions about how that work that they’re doing ties directly into those business outcomes that the portfolio is looking to provide and produce.

Dan Neumann [09:13]: Yeah. And when those teams are in kind of a, one of the clients that I worked with, they called it the tyranny of today. It’s all the stuff that’s pulling for their attention in addition to the strategic work. Uh, sometimes that doesn’t get exposed to the people who are making portfolio decisions. And so it’s important to have that both directions so that when the portfolios being envisioned and strategies and ordering of that, and then the people on the ground are seeing things that are misaligned or maybe would inform portfolio choices, you’re making sure that information is flowing both directions, I think is another element of that communication.

Quincy Jordan [09:53]: Yeah. And so, you know, and from a, let’s say, technique standpoint to really help foster that along, um, value mapping is a really good way to help with that. So, so that you can really truly see, you know, the value from beginning to end, how it reaches, how goes from ideation to actually reaching the user. And within that teams can see how their part, how their features that they’re working on, uh, actually contribute to that. You know, and there’s a sense of gratification, a sense of accomplishment. Um, there’s a sense of contribution to the whole that is felt when, uh, when teams can do that and they can see that it, it really encourages the team and motivates the team, uh, greatly.

Dan Neumann [10:47]: So let’s, maybe we can expand on value mapping a little bit in case people are or maybe have heard the term and they’re, they’re not quite sure, you know, maybe in agile we’ve heard of story mapping and value mapping is different than that.

Quincy Jordan [10:58]: Sure. Yeah. So, so look at the story mapping as tracking how you’re going to from a, let’s say technical standpoint, uh, fulfill that particular story or that particular requirement. Let’s look at it that way. Um, whereas the value mapping, you’re really tracking not just a checklist of stories, but you’re tracking like from ideation to user, how the value actually goes through the entire process, where it, where it flows and then how does it actually get to that user and what that value really, truly is. You know, as well. So being able to map that value then can allow you to, uh, it can allow you to do different things. One, it can, it can allow you to figure out what teams are best, maybe to work on certain aspects within that value map. Uh, and it can also, uh, help the Product Owners or product managers depending on, you know, the org setup or team set up. It can help them to also track how best to prioritize and reprioritize, uh, things within their product backlog as it matches up with the value map.

Dan Neumann [12:16]: Very cool. And that then is a sense or is a method for making where the value creation happens, making it visible so that everybody is aligned with it and then can continue to improve on the value stream?

Quincy Jordan [12:31]: Yes, yes. And, and really kind of speaking of making things visible as well. And, uh, I think it’s a good segue, um, to that is within a portfolio of products, you know, from an agile perspective, you know, we like to utilize, uh, Kanban boards. Um, so you can have a portfolio Kanban board, which will show all the products within that portfolio that are in flight. All the teams that are supporting those products. It’s, uh, highly visible to all the teams, to all the, you know, players within those teams or let’s say members, you know, within those teams. Uh, and it’s a really nice transparent way for people to see how their team fits into the bigger picture. It also allows teams to have empathy towards other teams because then they can see like, Oh, wow, this team is, you know, we thought they were only supporting this one product, but in actuality they are actually supporting like three or four different products and, you know, no wonder they don’t respond to my emails, you know, as fast as I would like. And, uh, and so it helps people to really build on, um, how the interaction between individuals happen, you know, and help that along because again, it’s helping to build empathy at the same time along with the transparency in making everything nice, invisible. Uh, the one thing that I would say though, when it comes to a portfolio combo and board, um, I personally feel that it should be out in the open. Um, but I do think you need to be a little cautious of where in the open it could be. And, um, I don’t think you should go too far into the weeds on a Kanban, on a portfolio level Kanban board. Uh, partly just because you know, you do want to stay sensitive to, uh, uh, corporate prophecy, you know, uh, not, I don’t want to say trade seekers, but you know, infer intellectual capital, you know, things that you don’t want to necessarily get out. Um, that could be key to what the company’s looking to do over the next, you know, three, four quarters or so or something like that.

Dan Neumann [15:05]: Would not want to be exposing I think of the skunkworks projects, you know, the, the secret military things, the, the, uh, the stuff that truly, uh, needs to stay within the organization. Uh, but there’s so much work that isn’t a secret sauce. And you know, if your project have, uh, names that don’t give away necessarily the value, you know, if you call it project food or whatever, you know, it’s not saying what that is, but it could still say, Hey, here’s, here is where it is in the value delivery process. Here is its priority. Um, here’s maybe the key person to go to if you have a question about that. So radiating some of those critical factors on that board without, uh, without giving away your, uh, your corporate secrets that are appropriately corporate secrets.

Quincy Jordan [15:55]: Yeah. So absolutely. I mean, you know, you don’t want, uh, you don’t want all of the details of, you know, the portfolio of area 51, you know, to be all out in the open. So you don’t necessarily want, but of course I’m joking.

Dan Neumann [16:13]: Well, I was thinking those guys are going to storm area 51 earlier this year. I was waiting to see how that went down. It’s a whole different set of crazy right there. Uh, so, uh, we’ve talked about having a, having a vision, potentially capturing that through a framework like the newly popularized OKRs seems like they’ve come out of nowhere in the last few years. Uh, making sure that’s communicated frequently and, and understood and, and communication both ways and then having a value map and keeping that transparent. So, you know, we’re talking about establishing it, communicating, keeping it transparent. Uh, and one of the other keys as we were prepping for this, you were talking about with sustainability of the portfolio. So let’s, let’s explore that.

Quincy Jordan [17:04]: Yeah. So, um, you know, within the portfolio, so you want to make sure that, so if we look, if we just kind of tracked back just a little bit and we’re looking at the portfolio Kanban board, for example, uh, you want to make sure that you’re controlling the web. You want to make sure that you’re looking at the cross team dependencies. Uh, you want to make sure that you’re using, an appropriate model that will allow the management of the portfolio to be sustainable. Um, so you want to anticipate, you know, uh, certain things. And so for when, when you’re doing a transformation transformation, you know, there should be some post transformation preparation, you know, as well, unless you take place. Because of course, you know, the goal of a transformation is to transform is not to be in a position of a constant state of forever transforming, but you want to make sure that, um, that you’re able to eventually transform. And so, uh, you know, if you think about, uh, some of the efforts that we’ve been put in place for the transformation, uh, such as a community of practice, uh, so you know, though that becomes part of the support of the total portfolio, you know, uh, products, uh, because there are many different teams may need different products. And so how do different teams handle, you know, different conflicts and run into, you know, different challenges. And the COP is a really good way to, uh, to help the learning along in those areas. But there can come a point where maybe that particular COP has as really lived its life in, in maybe as not providing the value that it wants did. So, uh, and inevitably that will probably, either that will probably happen or it may just become a little bit of old news within the organization. So attendance kinda dies down. Um, there isn’t, you know, as much going on with it. And that’s kind of the natural ebb and flow process that will take place within a transformation. Um, and again, you know, within the total portfolio. So those are things that you can actually anticipate and make part of the sustainability model. So when that happens, do we need to spin up a new, uh, community of practice or do we need to allow it to, uh, settle down a bit and then let the interest and demand kind of, you know, start back up and then, we re-introduce it. Um, so it really just kinda depends. But the main point is that if you, uh, want things to be not if, but you should want things to be sustainable. And by doing so, you need to look at that post transformation sustainability and what that overall sustainability model you know, should look like.

Dan Neumann [20:16]: So I think when you’re using the term transformation, you’re talking about the very um, kind of focused and intentional and, and a lot of times energy consuming effort to go from a current state to a more agile state, whether it’s more agility with the teams and or a more business agility. And so kind of the, the heavy lift is another phrase that sometimes gets used to mind to go from here to there and then having a continuous feedback, a continuous improvement process of figuring out what to, where to put new energy, what is maybe no longer adding value and we should be trimming off what should be automated and just kind of that continuous effort towards the portfolio and your organizational structure. Is that generally accurate?

Quincy Jordan [21:01]: Yes, I think so. Um, and you mentioned about, you know, the heavy lift. And so what’s interesting is that having that heavy lift, so it does start at the beginning of that and, and it’s during that time, but it also comes and goes as well because as there are, uh, org changes, market changes, uh, you know, significant, uh, direction changes within the organization. Again, we’re talking about a portfolio of products that you know, has a vision, um, and the vision and those values really kind of shouldn’t change, but it could. And you know, if it does, then that heavy lift really kind of starts again. So, so I don’t, I want to make sure I’m not giving the impression that the heavy lift is like a one time, you know, occurrence over a period of time and then it’s over. Uh, it could be, but oftentimes there’s another heavy lift to come. Um, as I mentioned earlier, with that ebb and flow, you know, taking place.

Dan Neumann [22:04]: Yeah. And you know, you do the change, you let it settle and you do some change, you let it settle in it. It’s a series of, of push and let go. And that seems somewhat related then to this notion of having a portfolio that’s combined of different horizons. The, the phrase horizon one, two, three. So maybe we can go into that a little bit because not all efforts in the portfolio are the same.

Quincy Jordan [22:30]: Correct. Yes. So absolutely, not all products are created equal. So it’s, it’s very much that you want to, uh, look at, you know, what we consider to be those three horizons. I mean, it’s not just us. Uh, if I’m not mistaken, I think McKinsey actually first came out with the three horizons, but, uh, McKinsey the company, but, uh, essentially horizon one being all right, this is your bread and butter. This, you know, this is your main product, your main market. Like this is what you do. You know, this is what you do. Um, you’re really good at it. There’s a demand for it. Um, it keeps the lights on. Uh, and, uh, and it’s, it’s critical to the survival of the business. Um, horizon two being really those same products that you have come accustomed to as a company. You know them really well. You know, that space. But you want to move into a new market. Uh, and so you’re taking those same offerings or products and moving them into new market space. And in horizon three being, Hey, we’re a new market, new space, new products, this is total innovation going on. Uh, and so what is really important across, um, or that impacts the portfolio, uh, within that is you, you don’t want to spend so much time keeping the lights on that you end up being blockbuster and blockbuster video and you know, you have a well all machine is running really well and, but you’re not looking ahead enough and you’re ignoring horizon two and horizon three. So you don’t want to be in that space. But you also don’t want to be in the horizon two space so much that you forget about your bread and butter and you’re so consumed with trying to get into new markets that you negate the bread and butter and you kind of negate, you know, coming up with new products. Um, and so there’s a, there’s a mixture or percentage that you would usually look at where there’s a bulk of that percentage of the company’s efforts, time, funds and so forth that we go towards horizon one. That’s the biggest area that you would put those, uh, all that time, effort, funds and everything towards, and then it’s a smaller area for horizon two and then a even smaller area for horizon three. Um, it’s important to have that establish so that as the portfolio decisions are being made and you know, unfortunately, you know, all companies run into this at some point, you know, they’re having to decide what they’re going to cut because they just, they can’t do everything. Uh, and in some cases they may be, they may even intentionally take on a significant, a larger number of products within that portfolio, knowing they can’t sustain all of that because they’re trying to narrow down to, okay, what are going to be, our true winners, you know, within the portfolio, and then place all the efforts you know, there. Uh, but having that combination of the horizon one, horizon two, horizon three, uh, is, is really critical to having a nice sustained sustainable business model that allows for true business agility. Because then at that point you can use that agile mindset to start making those, uh, uh, changes. It, uh, changes, changes in, you know, responding to change versus following a plan, you know, all those types of things where you’re not so stuck on, well this is what we said we were going to do. No, we’re going to make modifications as we go. But then you’re also going to include the interactions of individuals over processes and tools in more. So the first part of that, because you’re still involving everyone and making sure that the transparency is there, making sure that everyone really understands the changes that are being made and why horizon one is horizon one, why horizon two is horizon two. And there’s some teams that, you know, they would love it if they could stay in on the horizon three stuff, you know, that’s all they want to do is the latest and greatest, be as innovative as possible. Uh, but then you have other teams that are like, Hey, you know what? I want to know what I’m doing every day. I want to get really, really good at it. I don’t want to constantly feel like I’m never achieving because I’m always going after, you know, there’s a new thing that no one has figured out yet. Uh, so it really allows an organization to one, help establish their teams based on those horizons and really where to place the products and where to place all the effort in time and um, funds, you know as well.

Dan Neumann [27:23]: Yeah. I’ve, you know, I think of the, the bread and butter that’s often a place where you can lean out whatever’s happened in there, maybe through automation cause you understand intimately what’s happening and how the, how the, the process flow works. And as you get into less and less known spaces, so horizon twos and threes and that’s where a lot of the iterative, the quick feedback loops do something, see how the market responds to it and comes back. It becomes really critical. Yeah. So hopefully then we’ve touched on a Sabina’s question with the, how Lean and agile and portfolio management kind of all fit together. So we’ll, uh, hope to get some feedback on that and maybe hear what other questions or paths people, uh, would like to hear us explore as part of the podcast.

Quincy Jordan [28:09]: Yeah.

Dan Neumann [28:09]: So thanks for exploring that with me, Quincy. And when we wrap this up, what have you been reading as part of your continuous improvement journey lately?

Quincy Jordan [28:18]: All right, so I would have to lean towards “Unlearn” by Barry O’Reilly. Uh, it’s very much about, and you know, let me say this, it’s not really a book on agile, uh, in terms of, in terms of like an agile mindset or, or software development or anything like that or, or even agile teams per se. It is to a degree about thinking in an agile way. Not so much the mindset of being very, um, flexible in your thinking. So it’s very much about, uh, having the ability to unlearn things that may have actually even contributed to past successes, um, so that you can adopt new thoughts and new approaches for future successes. Um, one of the things that, you know, I mentioned about blockbuster earlier and that was kind of their biggest downfall, you know, that they, they really could not unlearn their past success so that they could learn the new ways of working, you know, and, and, you know, actually turned down a ridiculous, ridiculous offer from Netflix to partner up with them. That was, you know, in today’s terms, almost pennies, you know, uh, which would have kept blockbuster not only around, but they would have been a, they would have continued to be a formidable force in that space. Uh, but anyway, so “Unlearn” by Barry O’Reilly is, uh, what I’ve been looking at lately and yeah, it’s a good read. I would, I would recommend it.

Dan Neumann [30:03]: That’s cool. So learning and unlearning, and I think of that, you know, with, with folks we engage with as coaches for ourselves, you know, something got us to where we are, but that doesn’t mean it’ll get you to the next step and some of those things might be holding you back. Um, it’s true of agile. I kind of, uh, of agile folks too. I have it back over my shoulder here off the video camera that Quincy and I are using to coordinate. But it was my, uh, Pimbach a couple of versions ago. I dug it out the other day cause I was looking for a way to communicate about what we were doing from an agile standpoint and tie it back to the pimbach. You know, what, what the PMO that I was engaging with was traditionally interested in and talking about. And so I had to go, uh, I’d go refresh myself on the, uh, traditional project management stuff.

Quincy Jordan [30:51]: So did your, did your desk become unbalanced once you pulled the book?

Dan Neumann [30:58]: Well, um, ma maybe I have a lot of stuff on my desk. Um, yeah, it’s, it’s a really rigid structure and organization is not my forte and my desk shows it, but I’m good at making connections between different things for what that’s worth. But it was so, I guess that was part of my continuous learning. When you say a decade old version of the pimbach that I blew some dust off. It was good time. Well. Thank you Quincy, for joining and exploring this topic today.

Quincy Jordan [31:28]: Absolutely, Dan, thanks for having me. I look forward to coming back again and being part of the Agile Coaches’ Corner.

Dan Neumann [31:34]: Always. Thank you.

Outro [31:37]: This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions, and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips from this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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