Podcast Ep. 83: Getting to “Start” as a Scrum Team with Quincy Jordan

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Episode Description:

In today’s episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by frequent guest Quincy Jordan. Quincy has been with AgileThought for just over two years as a principal transformation consultant and agile competency lead. Prior to AgileThought, Quincy was the transformation lead for Pivotal’s Atlanta office, where he consulted with clients to help them reach enterprise scale. He has also served as a principal consultant and agile coach at SCRUMstudy.com for over six years.

Today, Dan and Quincy are talking about what it takes to get from zero to “start” as a Scrum team. They speak about the different types of starting, the strong values needed for getting started, the foundational pieces you need to understand, some of the bad practices and anti-patterns teams fall into when getting started, and additional key pieces to keep in mind after a Scrum team is established.

 


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Key Takeaways:

  • Scrum values that are key to getting started:
    • Courage is needed to get to the point of deciding to start
    • A willingness to try something that you haven’t tried before
    • Adaptation is crucial
    • Be comfortable moving forward in the face of ambiguity
    • Being okay with starting before everything is “perfect” or “right” (because you can’t ever get it “right” if you don’t start at all)
  • Key points and understandings to getting to “start”:
    • Clarify the roles in Scrum
    • Refer to the Scrum Guide to understand the foundations of the framework
    • Determine who is going to fill the role of Scrum Master and the Scrum Product Owner
    • It is critical to understand that the Scrum Framework is already so scaled down that you really can’t take anything out
    • If you do not have enough team members to separate the roles out, it is possible to start but not recommended
    • Having the product backlog in place helps keep the team focused — especially early on (because it helps the team know what they’re headed toward is producing value)
    • Start with the questions: Do we have a team? Do we have a group of people who are committed to doing the work? Are they cross-functional enough to do the actual increment at the end of every Sprint? Do they have a product backlog that helps identify what to do?
    • Take note of what isn’t in the Scrum Guide
    • You don’t need to forecast four or five Sprints out (too much will change before you get to that point); if you have enough for one or two Sprints, you can start
    • Camaraderie is an essential part of doing Scrum
    • Leadership support/buy-in is not 100% necessary to get started
    • You should have a commitment to allocate a cross-functional group of people to the effort and allow them to focus
    • The team needs to collaborate and work together; you can’t have islands within the team
  • Key pieces to understand after getting to “start”:
    • A way to gain leadership support/buy-in is to get some early, quick wins and show the value of what your Scrum team is doing
    • When the leadership support is there, the onus is on the team to make sure that they’re communicating well with leadership
    • Communicate well with leadership by not only letting them know what’s great, but letting them know the challenges as well
    • Frequent communication within the team outside of the daily Scrum is crucial

 

 

Mentioned in this Episode

 


Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and not completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar]

Intro [00:03]: Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann [00:17]: Welcome to the Agile Coaches’ Corner. I’m your host Dan Neumann, and joined today by Quincy Jordan. And we’re going to be exploring the topic of getting to start in the context of a Scrum team. Thanks for joining.

Quincy Jordan [00:30]: Absolutely. Thanks Dan, for having me always, always happy to be back on the coaches’ corner with you. It’s always a pleasure. Thanks.

Dan Neumann [00:38]: Uh, it’s always fun. And, um, yeah, so we were talking before we clicked on the record button about what does it take to get from zero to the point where you’re started as a Scrum team and you are, you were elaborating different types of starting and you maybe want to expand on that.

Quincy Jordan [00:59]: So, you know, one of the Scrum values is courage and, you know, it takes courage just to even make, come to the point of making the decision, you know, that we’re going to start, you know, and, um, and I think sometimes that’s not considered enough. Uh, you may not have leadership buy in yet, and you may not even know what it all means yet. You just have heard some things about other people getting a benefit from Scrum and, you know, it has to do with increasing transparency and, you know, uh, inspection and adaptation and all these other things that you’re not really exactly sure about. Um, but just getting to the point of saying, you know what? Things are not going as well as we think that they could, we want to improve what we do. Uh, and we’ve heard about this Scrum thing. So let’s make a decision to research further, dig into it further and see, okay, do we want to do this Scrum thing? So that’s sometimes that’s, that’s the first step to even, you know, walk up to the starting line.

Dan Neumann [02:10]: Yeah. Doing that preparation then like you’re talking about what would it even mean? So what does doing Scrum mean? Um, in that, for me, I think that would be trying to understand about the roles and the events and the artifacts and how, what does a good Scrum team look like and what types of behaviors fall into this pejorative of Scrum, but you know, where we do Scrum, but we don’t have an increment every Sprint, or we do Scrum, but we don’t have a Product Owner or et cetera, et cetera. There’s lots of bad ways to try to do something and call it Scrum, but it’s not quite there.

Quincy Jordan [02:46]: Yes. And, uh, so that kind of brings me to thinking about when, you know, when some teams are, are, you know, they’re thinking about getting started, they don’t really know yet. Uh, and in some cases, leadership may have gotten wind of, you know, what Scrum might be as many have, you know, these days and, you know, and they just like, Hey, let’s do this cheaper, faster thing. That’s what we heard it is. It’s cheaper and faster. So that’s, that’s what we’re going to do. Um, and is predicated upon that. Um, and when it’s predicated upon that, as far as starting, you know, that sets a certain level of expectation, uh, you know, that the team may have that really isn’t the best expectation for them to have. So when they’re starting to prepare, um, to actually start and they’re looking to, you know, get permission to make sure that they’re allowed, you know, to start, you know, that type of thing, uh, you know, how that comes about is pretty important, you know, to think about because it sets the early mindset that starts going in a particular direction.

Dan Neumann [04:02]: Yeah. I think that concept of cheaper, faster leads to several bad behaviors. So for me, I think of let’s build as much as we can build, build, build, build, build, right? Let’s keep the developers, you know, time being used efficiently. So it’s always fingers on keyboards. Like I think some of that can lead to, um, some really bad behaviors and one possible place then for folks that are, um, serious about starting Scrum or even frankly a lot of folks that are doing Scrum or sort of Scrum, et cetera, is just hop out to the Scrumguides.org and read the Scrum guide. It’s only 16 pages printed. At least it was the last time I looked. So there’s not much there and really take note of all the stuff that isn’t in the Scrum guide, because there’s so much stuff that people talk about story points and the user story format. And, um, I don’t know, I hear about things like Sprint zeros, all these things that aren’t really, they’re not in the Scrum guide and some of them aren’t helpful to do in many cases. So that’s where I would encourage somebody to hop out there and just consume that.

Quincy Jordan [05:17]: Yeah, I completely agree. Um, it’s, you know, and when we’re also thinking about, well, how much is enough, you know, to get started? Like what do, what all do you need, you know, to get started? And, uh, especially if you’re in a traditional environment or almost a hybrid environment, or there are Scrum teams with project managers, you know, those kinds of things going on. Uh, and so it’s good to clarify those roles, which, you know, as you mentioned, the Scrum guide is an excellent, um, not only is it an excellent place that it is by large, the place, you know, to go, to get a good understanding of what is this, uh, Scrum thing all about, what is this framework all about? And that’s where, you know, you can learn about the different roles and the events and the artifacts and, uh, in what things you need to factor. So when you’re thinking about those things, then you also need to think about scheduling and calendars. And, uh, you know, as we start looking into the events while we have Sprint planning meeting, man, this is a long meeting. You know, I had a client I was working with earlier today and when, when I saw their first Sprint planning meeting, they ran out of time and they just casually set up a second meeting for, to continue Sprint planning. One week later into the Sprint, we’re going to have to make some adjustments there. Uh, and so we extended that time, uh, to, to really be able to have, uh, a full Sprint planning meeting. Um, when you look in the Scrum guide, you’ll be able to see, you know, some suggestions in there for, um, you know, how long events should be, who should be involved or what role should be involved in any event. So, uh, those are, you know, in my opinion, um, you know, some of the things that I think should be there, um, that would help you to have enough to start. Um, in addition to a willingness, you know, willingness to say that, well, we’re going to try something that we haven’t tried before. So the inspection and adaptation that like, that whole way of thinking is crucial, uh, from the very beginning that, uh, that teams are really thinking through, we’re trying something we haven’t done before. We don’t know exactly what we’re doing, but it’s okay because they have these built in feedback loops and these built in loops that, you know, we can really reassess and see, do we need to change anything? Do you know, going forward?

Dan Neumann [08:11]: Right. So starting with the question of, do you have a team like that’s, as I think of, are we ready to start? It’s like, Oh, do we have a group of people that are committed to doing the work? Are they cross functional enough to deliver an actual increment at the, every, at the end of every Sprint, like, that’s, that’s one of the costs of entries for Scrum. So I start there and then, you know, do they have a product backlog that helps identify what to do? So do they have that artifact in Scrum, that’s going to allow the team then to turn product backlog into increment, every Sprint. And so now it’s like, okay, we’ve got two of those elements. And then who, who’s going to be your Scrum master, who’s going to fill the role, the Scrum product owner. And gosh, I’ve, then we’ve got enough for a Sprint planning session, like very minimal. Yep.

Quincy Jordan [09:04]: Exactly. And it’s critical to critical to have those roles. It is also critical for people to really understand that Scrum, the Scrum Framework is so scaled down that you really can’t take anything out. You know, people tend to look and they say, okay, well, you know, uh, did we really have to have a Product Owner? Maybe the Scrum Master can be the Product Owner also. Oh, no, please don’t do that. Those are things that, uh, tend to occur, but they’re real things because, uh, the team may be starting in. So, so what if, what if that is the case? What if it is the case that the team wants to start and they don’t have enough team members, uh, to separate the roles out? You know, I don’t know. I mean, is it okay to start with a Scrum Master and Product Owner, one person fulfilling both of those roles? And, and I would say in theory, no, but in practice, if that will help you to start, as long as you are understanding that this is not the way Scrum is intended to be, this is not, these are not, uh, one person shouldn’t play both of these roles, uh, but it may allow you to start and you may be able to make the case, build some evidence and say, Hey, look, look, look at what we’ve been able to accomplish over four weeks. You know, we have two, two week Sprints look what we’ve been able to accomplish, and we aren’t even doing it. Right. So what if we had the, you know, the other, another person, so we could separate these roles out, you know, properly, um, and gaining that early evidence is, uh, you know, can be crucial to getting buy in from leadership.

Dan Neumann [11:07]: So the, the evidence, so if we have the, if we’ve got the team and we’ve got the product backlog, and then within, you know, somewhere between a week and a month, we’ve generated an increment, actual working software, that’s potentially shippable to show to your stakeholders might be an incredibly pleasant surprise for them. Yeah. I was just thinking, you know, there’s a lot of times where, um, I’ll wait to see any software in less than a month would be remarkable by a lot of standards that I, you know, do analysis paralysis, you sit there and you design and you think, and your plan and you do all the, what ifs and none of those, uh, mean much until you start moving and start to validate whether your plan makes sense. And that’s what I love about Sprinting. Yeah.

Quincy Jordan [12:01]: As opposed to, you know, and four months, four months later, voila, you know, we have something well, that is a very long time to go. And you have no evidence of really making any progress towards developing any value at all. Uh, and you know, you mentioned earlier, as far as, you know, one of the artifacts or, you know, having the product backlog in place, uh, and having that there helps to keep that team focus. It helps keep the team focused in general, but especially early on, uh, it gives that level of focus that needs to be there for the team to, uh, one know that what they’re going towards is truly producing value. Um, you know, some sort, they’re not just going through a checklist of things, uh, you know, to say, Hey, well, the team did some stuff, but it’s can actually be tied to, uh, the business objectives, you know, that are there. And oftentimes teams can’t do that. Oftentimes they, they have really no idea how the work that they’re doing every day ties back to the business objectives.

Dan Neumann [13:29]: Yeah. Having that voice of the Product Owner and say, here’s what is most valuable to deliver next? And just having, having that backlog, and it doesn’t have to be a backlog for the project, you know, air quotes, cause you know, maybe it’s even a product and not a project. That’s a whole conversation for another day. But if you have enough of a backlog for a Sprint, good enough, you know, the rest can emerge. We can learn as we start to go through the first week, the second week, et cetera, and refine that backlog in preparation for the second Sprint. And the third Sprint as we go on.

Quincy Jordan [14:03]: Yeah. And I think that brings out, you know, a good, you know, a good, important point, you know, that, all right. So, so you have those roles and those artifacts and events, and like you’ve gone through all that stuff. Uh, at least in terms of having a foundational, somewhat understanding enough to get started. And so now you’re like, okay, well, uh, let’s go ahead and make that plunge and jump on out there and start doing it. And so with the forecasting piece that people oftentimes want to, to look at, uh, they get kind of excited about wanting to be able to see so far down the road. Well, let’s make sure we have enough backlog for you know four or five, six Sprints, and you don’t need that. You don’t need that many Sprints out. Uh, and not only do you don’t need that many Sprints out, probably too much is going to change before you would ever get to that point anyway. Uh, but you know, to your point, you know, you have enough for one, two Sprints, you can start really, even if you have enough for one Sprint, you can start, uh, because at that point, yes, you want to produce value, but you’re more so just trying to get started, you know, it’s almost like working out, uh, yeah you want to be at the height of, you know, your physical, you know, uh, your physical capabilities, you know, and so forth, but sometimes you’re, you’re just at a point where, you know what, I just need to put one foot and try that again and again for about 15 minutes, you know.

Dan Neumann [15:49]: I don’t know, I’ve alluded to my running in the past year and a half. Oh, I love to run. And so what also, uh, sometimes the parts of physical fitness that I have not mastered is not doing something like not picking up the donut, maybe not having the extra beer, maybe not. And I think some of those, some of those, um, you know, some of those food examples are what we run into in software. Uh, maybe your donut is the fully dressed out Gantt chart with beginning to end dependencies. You know what, maybe let’s try, move in without that first. And so, yeah. So, uh, we’ll see. I can’t wait for races to start again. I’m, I’m, an age grouper I’m in the middle, but I enjoy the camaraderie and all that. Um, and I think that’s, the comradery is part of the Scrum too. So now we’re on a team. It’s not my, my group of specialists, hands off things to your group of specialists and it goes into a black hole and maybe at some point it comes out later, who knows? Right. Um, so a little bit of forecasting, maybe not too much. Um, and then what about, what about leadership? Let’s explore that a little bit because I think it’s tricky.

Quincy Jordan [17:02]: It definitely can because you have, you have Scrum teams that emerge as a result of, you know, a few team level folks that either have some past experience with Scrum that are new to the team or, um, or they have colleagues that they’ve heard things about and they just want to try it. Um, and leadership may not be on board yet, you know? So, so then that begs the question: If you don’t have leadership support, should you start? And, uh, my experience would say, if you believe that it’s going to be beneficial to how the team delivers. Um, and you believe that by doing that, it is going to deliver, uh, more or better value, uh, to the business. Then I’ll say, yes. Now, if you start, if you don’t have leadership buy in yet, or leadership just isn’t even aware of what’s happening, then there are different ways that you can play that that can actually be very beneficial. So one of which is get some early wins, some quick wins, you’re building some evidence you’re showing value. And inevitably, what will typically happen would be someone in leadership, whether it’s the middle tier or, um, or a more senior tier would notice there’s a difference in the output of that team. And that output is causing a difference in the outcomes for the business. Um, or maybe it hasn’t gotten quite to that point yet to where the outcomes are showing, but they can see that there’s better output happening. And so then that becomes an opportunity to say, Hey, I’m glad that you noticed that. Let me share with you what we’ve been doing. So there’s this thing called Scrum. It’s a framework and this is why it’s beneficial, and this is what we’ve been doing. Uh, but you know what, we could actually do it even better if we had your support. And this is how we need your support. Currently, we’ve been, uh, having, you know, someone to play a dual role, uh, between Scrum Master and Product Owner. It would be great if we could get, we could do even better job if we had, uh, someone that we could pull in that can actually take those roles, you know, take one person to take each role individually. Uh, so it’s really an opportunity, you know, at that point, if you do not have leadership support, so you don’t really have to wait now, I don’t want to confuse that with what would be the more ideal scenario, which is that you do have leadership buy in. Um, so if you have the opportunity to get leadership buy in, then by all means, you definitely want to get that first, and that will make a big difference and you don’t run into as much resistance. You get more support around, um, you know, the, uh, things that you may need in terms of whether it’s tools or physical space or whatever the case, uh, those things, you know, will be very helpful.

Dan Neumann [20:25]: Yeah. I think what you’re describing, there’s no mandatory outlay of cash to start doing Scrum, to start with an agile team and begin to Sprint and produce an increment. I think one of the really helpful things, if you can get, it would be the commitment to allocate a cross functional group of people, to the effort and allow them to focus. One of the other Scrum values, you’d alluded to courage earlier. One of the other ones is focus. And so let those people focus on the work as opposed to, um, pulling from separate queues of demand that they might have. So that to me would be a really important leadership support. If you can get it to start, if you can’t start anyway, right. If you know, and demonstrate that you’re able to deliver an increment and then talk about the value that could be gained beyond that from having a team able to focus, not thrash or context switch as much as maybe they were, and then yeah. Then bonus right space. Uh, if you need some tooling beyond 3m posted notes and some Sharpies, and obviously as a distributed group, at least in our country, for the most part still, you know, that some tooling helps whether it’s just, uh, you know, Google Hangouts for, for, Oh, they changed it. It’s not Google Hangouts anymore. Google meet, I think, is what they call it. Now. It’s what the cool kids do, but some, some tooling to collaborate and off you go.

Quincy Jordan [21:59]: Yeah. And you know, whether it will, in particular when that leadership support is there, uh, it is, uh, you know, the ownership is really on the team to make sure that they are communicating really well with leadership, um, know senior leadership, I mean, they have a lot going on, they have other things to do. Uh, and so it’s easy for them to lose track of what’s going on with, you know, one team, um, you know, say within a larger program or, or something like that. So the team really needs to take the time to make sure that they’re communicating, you know, really well. Um, you know, how things are progressing, what I know we have the Sprint review and that’s an avenue, uh, but some, you know, some stakeholders, they won’t be able to make it to the Sprint review. So, uh, you know, just making sure that, you know, there’s good transparency, good communication, um, let leadership know, uh, not only what’s great, but let them know the challenges, you know, that are there as well. You know, what, what things really, uh, seem to be holding the team back from doing so much better, uh, if they don’t, if it’s not communicated to them, how can they help? You know, so it has to be communicated to them. Uh, and again, some of that goes back to, you know, that value of courage because you may have to communicate some things that, you know, that the team is a little nervous about communicating, you know, we didn’t make as much progress as we thought we were going to make. Okay. So you didn’t now let’s, let’s dig into why, why did that occur? Uh, because there be some very valuable, uh, things that you can learn in why that you can take to leadership that they can help with.

Dan Neumann [23:52]: Especially when it comes to the order of that product backlog, because that is the source of demand for the team. And if the team is working on the wrong stuff, that’s a great chance to get clarity on the Sprint review. And it’s happened only, you know, a Sprint later, somewhere between a week and a month, so really important to get that clarification. So any other types of communication that come to mind for you, obviously for people directly involved, it helps if they know their, their role within the Scrum team, Scrum Master, Product Owner development team, any stakeholders, if you’re asking them to maybe hold on to a request till the end of the Sprint, because that’s the chance to kind of plan the next most important thing, uh, what are the types of communication?

Quincy Jordan [24:40]: Um, so I think the, probably the most important thing with, uh, getting to start is for, for the team to know that they need to collaborate and work together. You can’t have islands within the team that is going to be an anti-pattern that will not work well within the Scrum context and will prevent the team from really performing as to the best of their ability or to the extent that they can. So that means daily communication with each other, not just during the daily Scrum, but outside of the daily Scrum, they need to communicate, they need to communicate with one another. Um, and you know, it doesn’t have to be super formal, but it needs to be regular. It needs to be frequent, uh, and no one should feel embarrassed or afraid, and they should encourage each other to not feel that way to ask someone else for help, if they need help or, or even offer, sometimes people can feel embarrassed to offer help, you know, uh, and if the person says, no, you know, I’m good, I have it. Okay. Nope, no problem. Um, but if you recognize that there’s a blocker that keeps coming up and the person really seems to be struggling with it, then, you know, maybe be a little bit more creative with how you communicate that you’re willing to help and you’re willing to step in. And, you know, maybe you say, Hey, look, Hey, I’m actually interested in learning some of the things that, uh, that you bring to the table. Maybe we can pair for an hour, uh, you know, a couple of times a week or something like that. Thanks. I just help open the door and help the team to, uh, increase and have better communication with one another, even in a traditional project management environment. Like the, the number one thing is always communication. Even if you look back at, or I say, look back, but even if you look over at PMI, you look at those things,

Dan Neumann [27:01]: That might be another topic for another day too.

Quincy Jordan [27:13]: Yeah. Yeah. But communication is a, it’s the number one thing. So if you don’t have good communication, then you really can’t expect to have good results.

Dan Neumann [27:23]: Yeah. I don’t think there’s been a postmortem. We’ll use the, you know, some of the old terms there, I don’t think there’s ever been a postmortem or like, you know, the project is to the communication is way too amazing. Like that’s why we failed is because the communication was great. Yeah. Yeah. That’s funny. So let’s see, you’re talking about collaboration. That’s right. So it got me to thinking, especially with new teams that are coming from a place where prior they had a very narrowly defined role and responsibility. And now they’re one of the development team members, and we’re going to start saying, okay, your specialty might not be needed right at this instance at time, what else can you do to help meet the Sprint goal? How else might you help the team? And I think that can be extremely uncomfortable and an opportunity for the Scrum Master if you, uh, if folks are using a coach getting started to really kind of help people be okay with the discomfort of like, Hey guys, I don’t know what I can do. How can I help to that? And that’s sort of the communication piece fits a lot.

Quincy Jordan [28:34]: Completely agree.

Dan Neumann [28:36]: Outstanding. So I think what we’re saying is getting to start is, you know, it’s fairly lightweight. You can consume the Scrum guide, make sure you’ve got a team and a backlog take what support you can. If it’s offered from leadership, don’t run a foul, I would say of any HR policies or, you know, certainly, uh, if there’s an electric fence in your organization, don’t go, don’t go cross in that when you’re starting your Scrum journey. Um, and then being comfortable moving in the face of, of ambiguity is sufficient.

Quincy Jordan [29:10]: Yeah. And I like what you said at the very beginning, um, just about it being lightweight, uh, don’t feel as though, uh, you have to have it all right. You know, to start, um, it doesn’t have to be, uh, perfect. And I know some, you know, Scrum purists might, you know, want to get after me for this, but, uh, but the point is, you know, if you get started, you can’t get anything right. If you don’t start. So it’s more important to start than to think that you’re getting it just right. That is part of the objective and inspection and adaptation is that you don’t necessarily have it right at the beginning, but by starting and inspecting and adapting, eventually you’ll get to the point of, you know, good efficiency, good habits, good behaviors, and most importantly, good delivery.

Dan Neumann [30:09]: I love it. I like the quote, “You can’t get it right if you don’t start.” So thank you for that exploration, glad you were able to join and do that. How, uh, how has your learning journey been these days? And I know COVID-19 has thrown a monkey wrench into, uh, into my plans, at least it’s, I don’t know where I used to find time to drive to an actual office or get on a plane, to go to a client. Um, and Blacklist has been my continuous learning journey these days.

Quincy Jordan [30:40]: We’re on the same page. I was just going to say, you know what, I am not going to pretend that I have picked up, you know, these paths, you know, two or three novels and you know, these great books and so forth. I haven’t. Not lately. I have not, I have binged and vegged out on Netflix too. Maybe, maybe in my own way, temporarily, uh, you know, escape for some period of time, you know, and then come back.

Dan Neumann [31:11]: I love it and totally worth doing at this point. So yes, that’s awesome. We’ll pick up some inspiring book reading another time. You have a favorite Netflix, are you one of those, whatever the tiger dude was, or?

Quincy Jordan [31:24]: Oh no. You know, I still have not seen that. I have gotten more into, uh, really like some series that, that, um, that I just hadn’t had not ever taken the time to watch before. So some catching up on different series that have been out since 2016, 2015, and like, Oh, I kind of remember that coming on before, you know, in some of them are actually really good.

Dan Neumann [31:52]: Yeah. That’s awesome. Well will keep bingeing for another week. Yeah. Thanks Quincy.

Quincy Jordan [31:58]: Hey, thank you. Glad to be here. Looking forward to coming back again. It’s always a pleasure, Dan.

Dan Neumann [32:03]: See you soon.

Outro [32:06]: This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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