Podcast Ep. 84: Getting to “Finish” as a Scrum Team with Andrea Floyd

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Episode Description:

Last week on the podcast, Dan and Quincy Jordan explored the topic of getting to “start” as a Scrum team and overcoming the inertia of being stuck. Continuing on this theme, Dan is joined by special guest and AgileThought colleague, Andrea Floyd, to discuss what comes after getting to start: I.e., start “finishing.”

Tune in to hear Dan and Andrea discuss everything that happens between the start and finish, getting to “done” incrementally, challenges that Scrum teams run into with starting “finishing,” and Andrea’s tips for getting to “done.”

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Key Takeaways:

  • Challenges Scrum teams run into with starting “finishing”:
    • They get stuck with reimagining the new way of working and understanding how to get to “done” incrementally
    • They face analysis paralysis by overthinking (which prevents them from adapting to this new way of working)
    • They may defer risk due to their fear of failure
    • They have a reluctance to let go of yesterday and fall back on the previous practices they were comfortable with because it’s easier or what they know
    • They take on more work without considering what’s going on with the rest of the team
  • What does “finish” or “done” mean?
    • All organizations have their own unique definition of “done”
    • Some organizations even have multiple definitions of “done” for different levels (i.e., “done” at the story level, at the Sprint level, or at the release level, etc. [it depends on their build and release cadence])
  • Andrea’s tips for teams for getting to “done”:
    • It is important for the team to discuss what “finish” or “done” means and to come to a consensus
    • Make the definition of done visible in the team room (the more visible it is, the easier it is to refer to and to guide the conversations)
    • Get creative in the visibility of your team’s definition of done — Andrea suggests making team T-shirts with the slogan, “Our definition of done: ______”
    • Look for opportunities to care and work with your team members to support them in this journey (retrospectives and daily Scrums can be great opportunities for positive reinforcement, calling out work well done, and celebrating successes)
    • Work together as a team and help one another
    • Consider adopting a catchphrase for your team such as, “No man/woman left behind”
    • Stay focused on the Sprint goal as a team
    • The practices established in Scrum will help you understand the “why” behind what you’re doing and how you’re working
    • Use the “Five Whys” to understand the root cause of why some team members may be stuck in their ways and not wanting to adapt
    • Get the team to a point where they feel safe and courageous enough to share the challenges they may be facing that are preventing them from achieving their goals
    • Create an environment that feels safe and supports learning, courage and experimentation
    • Make safety a prerequisite
    • You can achieve great wins as a leader by empowering your team, helping them become autonomous, and teaching them the ability to self-organize

About Andrea Floyd: Andrea is an enterprise agile transformation consultant at AgileThought. She has 25 years of experience in software development and management. She is an innovator who has led multiple organization-wide scaled agile implementations, and she has also architected innovative solution strategies and roadmaps across many frameworks (including Scrum, Kanban, and Scaled Agile Framework). 

Mentioned in this Episode

Andrea Floyd’s Book Pick:

Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and not completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar]

Intro [00:03]: Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now here’s your host coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann [00:16]: Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner, I’m Dan Neumann, and today excited to be joined by a new guest, Andrea Floyd, who is a colleague of mine at AgileThought, so thanks for joining.

Andrea Floyd [00:27]: I’m excited to be here. Dan, looking forward to our conversation.

Dan Neumann [00:31]: Me too. Last week on the episode that got released, uh, myself and Quincy Jordan, were exploring the topic of getting to start and really kind of overcoming that inertia of being stuck and kind of, what does it take to get to the point where an agile team or a Scrum team can start and then appropriately, you said, Hey, what about, you know, start finishing? So how do we go from, you know, to stop starting to start finishing our work?

Andrea Floyd [00:59]: Wow. What a great, uh, pre, uh, conversation before this one. Yeah. So, you know, the problem, um, that I’ve seen and working with various clients is, you know, once they’re started on their agile journey and they’re beginning to, to move forward, they’re excited and they’re, you know, very intrigued about what is this new way of working. But one of the challenges that they may encounter is where they get stuck and they get stuck where they don’t know how to reimagine the new way of working and how to get to done incrementally. And some of that turned up in, you know, we’ve often heard the phrase analysis paralysis where they overthink. And one of the things I try to help share with them is that I need them to be my Disney Imagineers. I need them to close their eyes and open their minds to a simpler way of working. And, you know, thinking back to what they’ve learned about the, the agile framework that they may be using, let’s say at Scrum, you know, they know the, the practices and the principles, but they may not have, have a deep level of understanding and, and what it means, and, and the values that you get by going on that journey to “Done”. Uh, so what I am asking to do is open their minds and imagine, what can I do that starts me moving forward so that I can start to achieve incremental learnings and successes. So through that analysis paralysis, if you just spend all your time there, you’re not going to learn, and you’re not going to be able to adapt to that new way of working.

Dan Neumann [02:47]: I think I see that a lot of times when it comes to topics like, uh, the architecture, but that, that often can turn into a very long, with no obvious end to it. Lots of diagrams, lots of iterations, lots of feedback. And what you were describing about a simpler way of working is you only know if your architecture works by putting something on it, running it, and then, um, you know, inspecting it and improving on the architecture after that, where does it start to fall down?

Andrea Floyd [03:22]: Right. And I don’t need to build the full solution to know that if I can get a meaningful piece of that work to run through, you know, the critical path of my architecture, that, you know, the main, um, fishbone to that architecture. And maybe it’s not one thing, but maybe it’s three things. That’s a lot different than 27 things. And as I can incrementally prove out that I either need to make adjustments because it didn’t work out. And I had a learning and we all should be saying, Hallelujah, we added learning. This gives us that opportunity to make the adjustment, learn from it, and then change how we do our next, um, piece of work. That’s going to take us to that architecture. So it emerges. And that’s, that’s a term that you’ll hear a lot when you’re working in the agile frameworks is having requirements or work and ideas emerge because it emerges through that inspection and adaption and that learning opportunity.

Dan Neumann [04:23]: I was at an open space conference once. And one of the activities that they had us do was the failure bow, which is essentially, you know, standing up and proudly declaring thank you for the learning opportunity when, when something doesn’t go well. And I feel like there’s a very risk averse mindset, which when it’s combated with more and more design and more and more thinking, actually just defers the risk and the risk goes away when you actually start to build something and declare that, Hey look, Mr. and Mrs. Customer stakeholder, here’s a thing that I built for you. Tell me what you think.

Andrea Floyd [05:03]: Right. And I think that’s an important point that you’re raising is that deferment or risk is coming out of different behaviors. One of it is avoidance or fear sometimes I know it’s going to be messy. I know it’s going to be complex. So I’m going to defer that to the end because I need to prove and earn trust or respect or feel as if I’m doing my job. So I’m going to work on those things that are simple. Now where’s the, you know what, where’s the value in that? And that’s where you need to be having the right people, help sequences work, right? And you’re, you’re hoping that these people understand how to sequence work. So that value, whether it’s something that positively impacts a customer or something that positively reinforcing you’re heading in the right direction for a very expensive architecture, you know, so you do look for that judgment to be used through that journey, but risk avoidance avoidance tends to not get you in the best shape at the end of it. You’ve delayed, uh, the opportunity for people to engage early enough to help and partner with you and move you through and created a different way of looking at solving the problem. So there is a cost and it can be quite large, so it may not feel like it. But what I found in my experience is that if I can articulate why it’s important for me to be working on this piece of work first and the value that I’m going to achieve, whether it’s value to the customer or to us from a technology standpoint, my hope is that people will hear me and trust me and allow me to work on that small piece first.

Dan Neumann [06:43]: And work on it and deliver that small piece and show somebody, right. Just, you know, it’s not working on it indefinitely.

Andrea Floyd [06:51]: Exactly. And you know, the getting to done. Right. And we had a conversation just today. I know about the importance of having that definition of done and making sure that everybody on the team has a shared understanding of what done means and all that work that needs to go in to get you to done. So, you know, that’s an important, so in order to get to start finishing what does finished mean, so what is done mean is going to be an important activity for the team to get to talk about.

Dan Neumann [07:22]: Yeah. Getting that clarity. And do you have some places where you would recommend that as that definition of done is socialized talked about, do you have favorite places you like to see that captured to make sure that people aren’t misremembering the conversation?

Andrea Floyd [07:35]: You know that’s a good question. And, you know, hence, you know, before our days of COVID, you know, maybe it was make it visible in a team room, if you were lucky enough to have an agile room established, but the more visible you make, anything, the easier it is to refer, to, to look at, to help guide the conversation. However, in our virtual world, which even beyond COVID, a lot of individuals are international teams and they’re working. So yeah. You know, sometimes if it’s a real technical team, they live in their Wiki. So how do you creatively make it visible in their Wiki? You know, so looking for any, you know, maybe get even a little bit more creative team T-shirts our definition of done.

Dan Neumann [08:23]: I like it. I like the team t-shirt idea. Get hats. Yeah. It’d be a whole industry around definition of done attire. I like that. Um, but yeah, I know my son, when he got some shirts for something or other, you know, you can get them very cheaply done on the internet these days.

Andrea Floyd [08:44]: And, and practices is some teams have multiple definition of done. They may have done at the story level. They may have done at the sprint level. It really depends on their build and release cadence. Um, some organizations have a done at the release level because there’s different things that you need to care for. So in that whole concept of understanding when they’re, you know, start finishing, what does it mean to be finished during, you know, with that story? What does it mean to be finished with that sprint? And what does it mean to be finished when you’re launching something into the hands of your customers?

Dan Neumann [09:22]: Oh, sure. So yeah, multiple steps along the way. And each building on each other?

Andrea Floyd [09:27]: Right. When I was talking about imaginary, you know, sometimes there’s reluctance to let go of yesterday, right? When, when things are chaotic, when things are uncomfortable, human nature as you go back and you fall back on those behaviors or those practices that you’re comfortable with that, you know, they’re second nature to you. So as you look forward to adopting a new way of working, that helps you get to start finishing is looking for those opportunities to care and work with your, your team members, to support them in this journey of the new way of working to either reinforce and to celebrate them when they get something to done to celebrate them when they, they move away from that analysis paralysis. And they start actually decomposing things into smaller pieces to prove a theory out. You know, so it’s important that as you move forward in this new way of working, that you support one another and you encourage and celebrate that, you know, retrospectives are one opportunity to do that. But you know, there’s something to be said about the power in a daily Scrum of doing a call out, you know, thank you for doing that, that helped break that free for us. And we’re able to, to move so many pieces to done. So thank you, you know, thank yous go a long way.

Dan Neumann [10:52]: It does go along like that positive reinforcement. And so in thinking of other ways to care and help move the team forward, one of the opportunities that’s there is to offer help to one another, you know, Hey, you know, I, I may have some insights to share there, um, or let’s pull the team together and work on something that’s particularly gnarly because a lot of times I see teams that get stuck in the it’s your work and it’s my work, but it’s not our work together. Um, and that that’s tough and it’s easier to get to finished when we are trying to move it down the road.

Andrea Floyd [11:34]: Exactly. And as you’re, you know, you coach individuals on the principles and values of scrum, you know, one of the things that becomes very important, it’s one team, right? We, we moved down the field together and together we win. Together we struggle. And so, uh, you know, adoptive, uh, maybe you have a catchphrase for your team, no man, or woman left behind. Uh, but, but that’s where as a Scrum Master, maybe you’re using those moments to coach around and offering up, Hey, your, your, whatever you’re seeing that’s unfolding during the course of your, your sprint, you know, emerging that, making that visible to the team and helping to coach them to help catch the balls, to swarm on things, to support one another. And, and definitely I think a technique around making sure you stay focused on the sprint goal, and that’s what everybody’s working towards. And it’s the contributions of the entire team that will enable you to achieve that goal. So I definitely have seen, um, and I’m very happy to say, and many of them, if I’m going to facilitate a working agreement session with teams that will come through, I’ve seen that more times than the nod emerge on the working agreements at different teams I’ve worked with have come up with because people appreciate when somebody has their back and that it’s okay to ask for help. And it’s okay to offer help.

Dan Neumann [13:21]: Your reminder of focusing on the sprint goal for a scrum team, I think is, is super important. And it also then makes me think of that at the next layer down at the product backlog item, if you’re using acceptance criteria to figure out what it means to be done, um, and staying really focused on that. So, you know, in American football, right, the goal line is what you want to get across. You don’t see people like running up and down the field a whole bunch of extra times, just because, you know, they want to rack up the artist, they try to achieve the goal. And I know a lot of times scrum teams are like, well, while we’re in there, maybe we should do this, that, and the other thing. And they kind of voluntarily explode the scope on something that could be pretty simple.

Andrea Floyd [14:02]: And that’s great because when you do that, I believe you’re coming from a space of wanting to add more value. Well the value that was defined for that sprint encapsulated in that sprinkle. So by you taking on more work without considering what’s going on with the rest of the team and how they may be having some struggles of getting to Done, you know, that’s where you jump in and you start testing, you know, you can see that building at that time when you jump in and you start paraprogramming with somebody to help them get through a sticky place. You know? So while the intention is, may feel like it’s coming from a really good place, and I believe it is that’s where you have to remind them, we’ve got to achieve the sprint goal. So let’s figure out, creative ways to help one another do that.

Dan Neumann [14:52]: It feels like oozing capacity towards other stuff, because like you said, when, when people are doing that, it might come from a, a well-intentioned place. Maybe there’s the thought, well, I can avoid rework if I just do the thing while I’m in here, you know, we’ve already opened up the patient. Let’s just work on some more organs at the same time. Um, from a, from a surgery metaphor yet on the Scrum team, then you’re also potentially putting the release at risk. You’re putting other stories at risk you’re, you’re building more code that has to be tested and cared for in the longterm. And so, um, while well-intentioned, it creates create other challenges when you kind of look at the horizon,

Andrea Floyd [15:34]: And that’s why I do love the practices, um, establish and Scrum. They will help you understand. And if you understand the why behind what you’re doing and how you’re working, that goes a long way then rather than just checking the box that I’m doing Scrum. And I’m a, you know, if you don’t see broader than just that, then you’re going to start to exhibit some of these bad non-value add behaviors. Cause in this scenario, we’re just describing them thinking, well, if there’s excess capacity, you know, somebody has some time. Yay. Okay. My first question would be okay, how can we help the team get to, you know, the sprint goal achieved and get to done? Okay, we got that mastered. Well, now the question is what’s of value in the backlog that we should consider pulling in that’s going to push us closer to achieving whatever we’re, we’re envisioning as that increment that we want to get into the hands of our customer.

Dan Neumann [16:34]: Very cool. Thanks. So what other challenges do you see with, with teams that are trying to get from maybe an old way of working to a new way where they’re finishing work much more frequently and incrementally?

Andrea Floyd [16:46]: I think one of the soundbites I hear sometimes is, well, that’s the way I do it, you know? And, and they think it meets the definition of being agile, you know, however they’ve interpreted and you know, there’s no one and done right with these definitions. And so, okay. I, I hear you, you, this is what you’ve done, why and the five why’s, you know, I’ve used that saying since my lean six sigma days, you know, using five why’s to understand and dig out really what’s that root cause. Why do you believe is your way of doing it is the right way. That sentence someone doesn’t tell me anything. So I encourage and the practice of asking the five why’s to really go a layer deeper and deeper until you really expose, uh, what may be the blocker, the real issue, the real, uh, thought. And you have a constructive conversation around that.

Dan Neumann [17:52]: I’m kind of curious if an example of the why’s come to mind. So for me, as I think through that, um, that, and it’s sometimes visualizing the fishbone diagrams right. If people are looking for five why’s sometimes turns out into a fishbone and we can provide a link to some materials on, uh, on folks who maybe would want to gain some familiarity with that. Sometimes they’re just doing it because that’s what maybe their, their manager has been telling them to do. Or that’s the process as opposed to exploring critically. Is it the most appropriate way to work?

Andrea Floyd [18:25]: I love, again, you said a word that just is magic to my ears, critical thinking, totally value and appreciate individuals who are good at critical thinking. Again, critical thinking is thinking just beyond the, what you see in front of you and understanding why and understanding where ultimately can you incrementally get to the outcome that you’re looking for. You know, and so having individuals who are good at critical thinking, um, and, uh, thinking beyond their borders is so helpful. And what I have seen with some teams, you get a mixture of people right in there, and everybody’s at a different place in their, their own personal career, their journey, um, their life. And some people have just innate abilities that are really good. So here’s the, when I get, if I’ve got a diverse team with a diverse set of skills, there’s that opportunity for the magic, the magic is the learning. So observing and learning. So, you know, having the conversations with people who do something really masterfully, um, and help people move through problems and encourage them to make that visible through articulating what they did, what they’re thinking that gives people in the room an opportunity to hear and learn, and maybe adopt some of those behaviors. So again, any thing that those attributes that help people just move past and move forward, getting you closer to finishes is a win for the team.

Dan Neumann [20:06]: When you were saying that, what comes to mind, you know, in scrum, we talk about a cross functional team with all the skills to deliver an increment. And also then the critical thinking, having a mix of folks that can think longterm, some folks that maybe are more tactically. Okay, great, great longterm vision. Now, what can we actually do today with that? You know, how can we take a step down that path? You know, while we don’t know where the ultimate destination is, or maybe it’s not perfectly formed yet we can start to take a step or two or three down the road together. And so having those that diversity of thought, then within the team, the critical thinkers, the tactical thinkers, the people who are like, you know what, just give me a thing. We’ll do the thing. Sometimes it takes all kinds.

Andrea Floyd [20:47]: Yes. And that is part of the joy of working with, we don’t want everybody to look and act like, you know, myself for say, you know, per se. So yes, that’s, that’s beautiful. Um, definitely, uh, when we are working with teams and we’re hoping that they’re understanding that there’s this, this need to continue to move forward and move towards the destination of that sprint. What we really need is for individuals to feel safe, um, safe in terms of being able to be courageous around sharing if there’s blockers or, or things that aren’t making sense that are taking them off path to achieving the sprint goal, um, we’re looking for them to feel, um, safe so that they know that we’re going to take something for a spin. You know, I believe, you know, with all good intent that this is going to take us where we need to go, but I don’t know for sure, but I have the, the sense of safety that I can experiment and learn from that. And it’s, I’m not doing something that’s so significantly impactful that it’s going to be harmful to a deep level, but, you know, so creating an environment that feels safe for learning courage and experimentation, I believe is essential to help people start finishing as well.

Dan Neumann [22:12]: Thinking through that, of course my mind went to Josh Kerievsky and the modern agile thing, which I think is just a, I think there’s value in it. I think it’s an even better piece of marketing cause who wants to do the old agile, if there’s a modern agile. So I I’ve got, I’ve got some hard feelings about that, the clever marketing side, but one of the things in that is making safety a prerequisite and delivering early is the best way to accelerate that risk. When I was managing waterfall projects, right? It was well, design requirements, logical design, physical design, we’re going to build it, we’re going to test it. Oh God, I hope the customer likes it was way down the road. Um, and so now with agile methods, as I got introduced to those it’s, what can we do to eliminate our risk versus just, you know, making a sheet of it or a risk register. And we track it as project managers until the end in the old days. Now it’s like, okay, we’re not sure if this will work in Amazon web services services, or we’re not sure how Azure will behave with that. So let’s build some of it. Let’s build a little bit and see what happens instead of crossing our fingers and hoping that when we get there, this thing on our critical path won’t bite us in the butt.

Andrea Floyd [23:26]: Yes. And you know, we’re all human. So we respond to support. We respond to kindness, we respond to, um, encouragement. And so if you create that kind of environment, you know, stand back and watch the magic happen. And that’s when people, gosh, what a talented group of people you normally find yourself working for. And when you, when you respect them and you give them the environment to create and imagine and define how to do something that is when goosebumps happen, when you start to see them break free of these old ways, where there is this check in, check in, gotta ask for, you know, that whole sense of autonomy, you know, and that empowerment there is such great wins. You can get as a leader, when you empower on you, you help to make your teams autonomous and you help to create that ability for them to self-organize. And when you do that, typically you end up being a delighted, uh, leader.

Dan Neumann [24:40]: I want to maybe amplify that and make sure that that folks are hearing it’s the leaders, it’s the managers, you know, an activity managers. And we’re asked to do as task track in non agile ways and to hand out tasks and status reports and meetings and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And what we’re talking about now is now focusing on the environment, how can you enable these people? I’m assuming managers have tried to hire talented people, and now how do you actually allow them to put that talent to work in a, in a positive way, um, with, with a safe way, like you’re talking about safety so that we aren’t risking the company, we aren’t risking, uh, exposure of personal information. If that’s the type of industry you’re in. Um, and within that though, they have the ability to make rapid decisions and finish things and then get feedback on them instead of getting stuck in, um, playing mother, may I, where you, um, I dunno that game might not be familiar with you, but your mother may I do this? May I do that? And it’s just this continuous asking of permission to do things.

Andrea Floyd [25:53]: Right. And one of the consequences of that type of style of leadership and management is you reap what you sow. So stand back and look at yourself when you’re looking in wondering why aren’t the teams moving forward and making decisions and working and delivering the outcomes that I need. Well, what was your role? And did you create that environment to enable that?

Dan Neumann [26:19]: Yeah, if the team’s used to getting directed, the only way to help get them out of that pattern is to stop giving direction. And I remember one Scrum Master the client I was working with really liked that, that person, they, and yeah, he just stopped giving directions or suggesting ideas and would just let the awkward, you know, uh, I don’t know what we should do. Hang there until somebody volunteered something or propose anything to go forward.

Andrea Floyd [26:46]: And that’s a hard thing to do, but really hits it home in terms of letting that, uh, assignment hang. Because if we keep doing for people, they’re not going to learn. And then as I said, you get the outcomes you set up for.

Dan Neumann [27:02]: What else would you like to touch based on, on this concept of stopping, finishing with our, with our time here?

Andrea Floyd [27:08]: I, you know, one of the images that was coming, I was working with a client recently and, you know, around, um, getting, you know, to start finishing is adopting a new way of working, right. And they were recently working on defining their product vision. And one of the things that they articulated in their product vision was cutting the ballast and letting it go so they could move forward. And what they were hoping to communicate in that to sink statement is that letting go of how we worked yesterday is helping us to be more creative, more dynamic, more customer facing and aware, and if we keep trying to anchor in yesterday, we are not going to get to our tomorrow. And I thought it was interesting. And it was a great concept given their product to, to set it up that way.

Dan Neumann [28:07]: It is. Yeah. If, uh, you know, I think of like air balloons with the, uh, the bags of sand or whatever, I’m not sure I’ll ever go on an air balloon because me and heights, we’re not, it’s a healthy respect. It’s not, I just don’t want to plummet down the earth. Right. But you’ve got to let those sandbags go, I think, to, to actually get up in the air at some point. So, no, I’m, I’m good with keeping my feet on the ground. Thank you very much.

Andrea Floyd [28:36]: Very good. Well, we’re happy that your feet are on our ground.

Dan Neumann [28:40]: Oh, I’m enjoying it. So we talked about, um, getting to done as a benefit. We were deferring risk, um, layered definitions of done for sprints and releases and going to production, um, some working agreements for clarity within the team, um, five whys and doing some of that critical thinking and then really focusing on creating an environment where people can finish and be safe. So really appreciate you exploring kind of all those different facets of getting to done.

Andrea Floyd [29:14]: Well, it was a fun conversation. Thanks for having me.

Dan Neumann [29:17]: Of course. And then we end a lot of the podcasts with, what are you reading, although last week, Quincy and I kind of bailed on that. I think we had guilty Netflix pleasures at the end of the last week’s, but, um, how about you what’s, what’s got you inspired or what are you digging into these days?

Andrea Floyd [29:34]: Uh, well, in terms of reading, I’m dusting off and rereading Stephen Dennings the age of agile and know it always, there’s so much great information in there. And, um, when you’re working at an enterprise level and you’re looking at agility, as, you know, as the overall organization and business, you know, it’s a, a great, um, read to help set that stage and really percolate some great ideas. So, yeah, that’s a good read, but I do want to say, I did listen to last week’s podcast. I hear you guys neither one of you have seen tiger King. That’s your miss. I think it’s because I’m here in Tampa, Florida. And one of the, the, the women who are part of this storyline is here in Tampa. So I was intrigued by that.

Dan Neumann [30:26]: Oh, what was her? Um, Oh gosh, her name her, um, uh, I forget. Yes, his his arch nemesis. Carol. Was it Carol? Yeah. Anyway. Yeah, no, yeah. You’re very close to that train wreck of Tiger King. I watched Waco recently, which was a reminder of just how messed up that whole situation was with the branch Davidian compound back when Janet Reno was the attorney general and all that. If you want to watch something where you’re like, Oh, that’s government did not play that. Well, it’s a whole series of train wreck.

Andrea Floyd [31:04]: We’ll need to do that. It’s Carol Baskin.

Dan Neumann [31:07]: Carol Baskin. Good. Yeah, that was good. So tiger King there. That’s good show. Well, good. I’m glad you have guilty pleasures as well. Thank you for sharing and we’ll, uh, we’ll look for some time and we’ll, we’ll do the skim.

Andrea Floyd [31:24]: Perfect. Thank you, Dan.

Outro [31:27]: This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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