Podcast Ep. 88: Agility: Not Just an “IT Thing” with Andrea Floyd

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Episode Description:

On today’s episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast, Dan Neumann is joined by return guest, Andrea Floyd. Dan and Andrea will be discussing the premise of agility and the common misunderstanding that it is only an IT “thing” and is software-centric. Andrea explains how agility addresses needs across the enterprise, and that it is about collaboration with many different areas of the business beyond IT. She shares how a shift from software agility to business agility drives the enterprise and talks about the following: Collaboration, feedback loops, design-thinking techniques, the importance of being customer-centric, applying agility across the organization, and key considerations around bringing the technology side and business side together.

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Key Takeaways

  • Considerations when shifting to more business agility:
    • Be careful not to create “us vs. them” scenarios (“us” as in the technology side and “them” being the business side)
    • As leaders, it is important to open up about the way you think about agility and its principles
    • It is important to create a united effort of working together to achieve the desired outcomes (moving from “doing” to “understanding”)
    • Be aware of cognitive biases. For instance, the ingroup and outgroup bias (where people tend to ascribe positive behaviors/attributes to people they consider to be in their group vs. ascribing/amplifying negative behaviors/attributes to people they consider to be outside of their group)
    • It is important to expand your ingroup bubble to at least your whole company (which would lead to more interpretation of positive intent and better collaboration)
    • It’s not about the individual developer getting to done; it’s about the team getting to done
    • Being more inclusive and valuing what every individual is bringing to the table has an incredibly profound impact
  • Key components of shifting from a software (or IT-centric) view of agility to business agility:
    • Start to reimagine roles and how you operate together
    • The business side needs to welcome the technologists to their side/domain and vice versa
    • Everyone needs to understand that there is huge value in understanding their customers/users and understanding the “why” behind delivering
    • Allow people to be free and feel safe enough to create and innovate
    • Invite everyone into the full conversation
    • Truly value being engaged
    • Work toward building empathy between the people building the software and the people who will be using it
    • Apply the agile principles, practices and mindset pieces across the organization
    • Understand the “why” behind why you’re doing agile practices as well as the intention behind them
  • Key places to have dynamic conversations with technology and the business:
    • Through backlog refinement – the inclusiveness comes from the Product Owner being able to articulate
    • Come up with a more creative “how” or an “incremental how”
    • The Product Owner can communicate “no” or “not yet” to their stakeholders
    • The software on its own is not the product; there are other key pieces that create the “shrink-wrapped” product
    • “When we think about business agility, what we want to do is understand what it takes to really get that product into the hands of our customers”
    • How you coordinate across the teams so you get that “shrink-wrapped product increment” is important
    • Think beyond just getting the software to “done”
  • Key points around accelerating the value chain:
    • Look to make “idea to value” as short of a line as possible
    • Reference “The Age of Agile’s” three laws of business agility: The law of the customer, the law of a small team, and the law of the network
    • Empower your team and allow for autonomy
    • Feedback loops with your users/customers are key
    • Design thinking techniques are a great way to learn more about your customers/users
    • Empathy is huge – it is the basis for innovation and creativity

About Andrea Floyd: Andrea is an enterprise agile transformation consultant at AgileThought. She has 25 years of experience in software development and management. She is an innovator who has led multiple organization-wide scaled agile implementations, and she has also architected innovative solution strategies and roadmaps across many frameworks, including Scrum, Kanban, and the Scaled Agile Framework (SAFe).

Mentioned in this Episode

Andrea Floyd’s Book Pick:

Transcript [ This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar]

Intro: [00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought. The podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the past to better outcomes. Now here’s your host coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann: [00:16]
Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner. I’m your host, Dan Neumann, and joined again by colleague Andrea Floyd. Welcome to the podcast.

Andrea Floyd: [00:25]
Hi, Dan. So great to see you again, and I’m thrilled about this upcoming conversation.

Dan Neumann: [00:31] Well, lets start with this first. Are you surviving the not going places to clients specifically?

Andrea Floyd: [00:36] You know, I I’ve been doing some training and boy, do I miss that interaction that you have in the room? And I just get more energized and I, I think it’s easier for you to read how it’s hitting and knowing where to reinforce or to tailor it back. So it, yeah, some, some aspects really missing that interpersonal connection in a deeper way, but, uh, for a lot of aspects I’m, I’m doing okay. How about you?

Dan Neumann: [01:04] Surviving. Yeah. Slowly trying to win people over to the video side of, of the world, because like you said, it’s hard to tell, you know, are people paying attention? Is it resonating? Are they giving you like that? Like you’re full of crap. Look, you know? Um, and, and so it’s just those nonverbal cues are super helpful, so totally, totally.

Andrea Floyd: [01:24] You know, getting people to feel comfortable because it’s, it’s like when I used to give presentations, I used to get so nervous, you know, but the reality is everybody else in the room is worrying about when they have to speak, that they’re partially paying attention. And so it’s like when you’re on video, it’s not like somebody’s sitting there scrutinizing you. It’s just at a glance. If you say something, your eyes are drawn and you, but as the person trying to connect with you, it’s so helpful just to, to read, you know.

Dan Neumann: [01:54] Yeah, there must be something, I don’t know. I keep trying to think is there something in our evolutionary path that makes us scared to see our own video. Like, is there some weird connection there, but anyway, people love mirrors. They love taking selfies. They hate the videos, but that might be a topic for another day. I need to find a psychology person who would actually be able to unpack that. But let’s talk about this agile thing a little bit. So the premise is sometimes people think agile is, it’s an IT thing or agile transformations are an IT thing.

Andrea Floyd: [02:26]
And that’s absolutely true.

Dan Neumann: [02:29] You said it’s true that people think that.

Andrea Floyd: [02:31] True that people think that, but it’s not just about IT. And what I love is just recently, I was working with a group of individuals who are beginning their agile journey and, uh, it starting from an IT area, but with the eye towards engaging across the enterprise. And, and, um, I think it was in 2018, about that time Gartner did it an agility trends, um, study. And they, you know, share that back in the eighties, you know, agility was being led out of manufacturing and that was with lean six Sigma. And then around 2001, as many of us are aware, uh, out came the agile manifesto. So, uh, it was leading more and more around the, the agility. And then now with around 2017, you have more CEO wide, uh, agile initiatives and transformations, and that’s coming, um, to address needs across the enterprise. It was like, people saw some value and they go, Ooh, what are you doing over there? I think I could use some of that and people started wanting to adopt it. And so that’s where I see us landing right now. It’s more of a comprehensive approach rather than just a centric approach.

Dan Neumann: [03:50]
I was thinking about this and looking back at that, the agile manifesto and the principles behind that, and, and there is a sense of, you know, IT or software developers plus the customer and, and engagement with the business and things like that. But I, I guess maybe I got to think that that was still in my head, more of a project based agility as opposed to a business based agility, even as I read through them, try and look for business agility. It seems like the concept’s not overtly present.

Andrea Floyd: [04:20] Such an excellent point because actually, you know, when you read through the principles and even the manifesto itself, it does have some of those words, I believe, definitely talks about, you know, technology and software, right? Um, I even believe it talks about projects sprinkled throughout and that’s another, you know, uh, again, and and this recent conversation, I was referencing Joshua Kerievsky’s, modern, agile, and where, you know, it’s four key components or principles around make people awesome, deliver value continuously, make safety, a prerequisite and experiment and learn rapidly. And quote, unquote, some of the people I was working with said, you know, can you go into that more because that’s hitting home with us, that’s more appealing that helps us see that it is about a collaboration with other areas of the business beyond just IT. And so that, that was really interesting. And I believe that’s where Joshua was coming from, you know, taking out some of those aspects that would make somebody think that agile was just for IT or was built there.

Dan Neumann: [05:36]
Yeah. I’ve stumbled across that. It was a, I think the team was doing auditing types of work and infrastructure types of work. So very much not creating software in any, in any way. And they really had a hard time kind of translating the principles and the values of the agile manifesto into what they’re doing. And, um, I think Josh did a nice service and, and admittedly, I think it was a clever bit of marketing cause who wants the old agile, if you’ve got the modern agile, but yeah. Um, so kudos to him for some, some very, uh, wise marketing there, but it, it does abstracted away from the, the software.

Andrea Floyd: [06:15] Right. And, and I have to say, this was a genuine moment. This was where I had just shared the agile manifesto and some of the key principles out of, you know, 12 of them with them. And then I just was talking about the modern agile next, and those were quote unquote words from an actual CIO. Yeah. So that, that really made me go, Oh, it’s not just my perception. It is, is actually for somebody who’s at the early stages of their journey, starting to see and understand the mindset around a shift from just agility to business agility and the way that that will drive the enterprise. And I think a lot of people having come from technology myself, uh, you’d have to be very mindful about not creating these us and them scenarios. You know, we’re us maybe technology and them as the business and really as leaders, you know, whether you’re a CIO or a manager or a person who’s, you know, a key player on a Scrum team opening up the way that you think around agility and appreciating that there’s value in application, um, that can be applied across the board, and looking for those opportunities to bring in those principles and create this United effort of working together to achieve the desired outcomes is really impactful, but that’s where you start to move from just doing to, to understanding.

Dan Neumann: [07:47] Yeah, I’m going to take you down a little bit of a rat hole here and we’ll come right back. But what you said, the us and the them I think is really important. And it reminded me of, uh, the cognitive bias. There’s one called ingroup and outgroup bias. And it’s where people tend to ascribe positive behaviors, positive attributes to people they consider to be in their group. And they ascribe and amplify, the negative behaviors to those outside the group. So you see that with Democrats, Republicans, developers, QA with, you know, mask wearers, non mask wearers. And so one of the things in that talk, I was just suggesting is how big can you draw that bubble around who’s in, who’s in your in group. And I think, um, what you were saying that it ties to the business agility. What if we were thinking about our group as at least our own company, um, and possibly a bigger bubble than that, and maybe that would lead to more interpretation of positive intent and, and, um, some, some overt collaboration.

Andrea Floyd: [08:46] Absolutely, you know, that’s a, that’s a phrase even at, so you take that concept and you broaden it because I know when I worked with some Scrum teams getting them to understand, it’s not about the individual developer getting to done it’s about the team, you know, getting to done and hitting this, the goal of this Sprint. So it’s about that one team. And, and so it’s sort of going along, the thread that you were talking about is how do you expand that out? And the positive impact that can have when you become more inclusive and you understand that and value what each of each person is bringing to the table. So again, applying those agile principles, principles, practices, and mindset across the organization.

Dan Neumann: [09:31] Yeah, very cool. So if, um, if one’s inclined to shift from a software-centric, or even an IT-centric view of, of agility towards something that is more, more business agility, what, what are some of the, the techniques that you’ve been seeing be successful there?

Andrea Floyd: [09:54] One is, uh, is learning that it’s important for not just the business, to have a relationship with the actual customer and to, to start to reimagine roles and, and how you operate together. So a sort of a respect on both sides of the equation. There, one is business welcoming some of the technologists into the space that they might say, this is our domain and understanding the true value that can, you know, come from that when, um, teams are able to work and listen and see customers interacting with your products or solutions, boy, I can be impactful is all in terms of I’m seeing you struggle with a real problem, and guess what, I’m creative. I can reimagine as an engineer, maybe options to adjust or improve that experience that you’re having. And you know what, now I really care. I see the human aspect of that problem and what it’s really generating. So I guess, you know, from a business, agility is having everyone understand that there is just huge value and understanding our customers our users and the why behind what we’re delivering, what we’re being asked to build, because that’s going to create this, uh, empathy. And that empathy is going to drive, human nature is going to be, you’re going to want to take care of herself for, and what I do know about many, many organizations is they hire amazing people throughout their organization. So allowing people to be free enough to create and innovate is very important, but it’s hard for me to do that if I’m just the receiver of information. So inviting me into the full conversation is going to be helpful. So that’s an aspect that I see from business agility that moment, when there is an appreciation of the outcomes you can experience, when you open it up and increase the size of your bubble.

Dan Neumann: [12:11]
Thinking about the bubble. And, um, especially that empathy part and the responding to change. I saw a, um, it was an outline of a, a process requirements, design build, test deploy, and right in that build, there’s that little, that little circle with the arrow on it back, like, you know, we’re going to iterate here and it’s an agile process. And I was like, no, that’s, that’s not an iterating through a waterfall is not an agile, there’s not a respond to change. There’s not the collaborative customer. It’s just eating a requirements doc one bite at a time.

Andrea Floyd: [12:53] Well, no, I get that because it’s an interpretation. It’s again, sometimes I believe the challenge there is not really truly understanding why you’re doing those practices, that you’re doing the intention behind them. And so when you adapted to the point where it’s not achieving its intention, that’s not a good thing. Uh, you’re not going to get, you know, you’re, you’ve now created it and distracted from its intention so that you’re not going to get what you really want, and you’re not going to see the value. Um, so is, you know, what I love about, uh, the agile frameworks are that they provide these practices and act as a guardrail. So there is this opportunity for teams to, um, put their own twist on or nuances on it within those practices and frameworks. But what I do know about Scrum, if you’re not doing those five events with the three roles and the three artifacts, then you’re not doing Scrum and what you were just describing, wasn’t Scrum, you know, it was something that’s not going to get those same results.

Dan Neumann: [14:00] Yeah, no, definitely not Scrum. They didn’t, at least there wasn’t a claim that that was a Scrum framework, but it didn’t even kind of resonate too much with an agility sense where, so, so I like what you’re saying. So true value of being engaged. I’m getting the empathy then between the people who might be building the software, the people who would be using it. And then I also like bringing options back. So the technology folks, when they’re not just taking orders, they’re able to look at the problem and say, what about this, or when they get a request, sometimes the person who’s asking for it has no idea how hard it is or how much disruption to the existing system they might be asking for. And when that’s made, known, they go, Oh, it’s really not that important. We, we actually don’t need it. If it’s going to cost that much or be that disruptive or, um, caused so much risk.

Andrea Floyd: [14:54] Right. And I think, you know, there’s a couple of key points, uh, places that you can have really dynamic conversations with technology and the business. Um, so one of them is around backlog refinement, where you hope that, you know, as ideas are coming in and coming through the backlog and you’re having those deeper conversations again, the, the, the inclusiveness comes from the Product Owner being able to articulate the value is perceived by them based on customer or user feedback or needs. But again, the frame of reference for the Scrum team or the technology aspect of that to understand, um, why something’s being requested will help them have a better conversation and maybe come up with a more creative, how, or an incremental, how I can get you there. But let me give you, because what I was hearing and seeing firsthand was this, what if we get this to you first? Cause this is something that we can do relatively easy. And I think it’ll solve this aspect, the dynamics of the conversation, start to shift with that appreciation and inclusion.

Dan Neumann: [16:07] And you’re talking about the incremental, how, you know, the phrase, you know, no, no is a powerful word. So no is one option. It even better is just a, not yet like, yup. I’m not saying no, I’m just saying not now, you know, from a, from a backlog standpoint, that Product Owner, communicating that to their stakeholders really, to it’s, you know, no, Mrs. Stakeholder, you know, I’m not saying you can’t get it. I’m just saying, you know, for right now here’s our focus. Here’s, here’s what we believe we need to do to limit work in process, to deliver value.

Andrea Floyd: [16:42] Right. I wanted to, you know, to take a second and also open this up beyond, you know, just, just delivering the solution or the software I want to look at when we say we’re going to give a customer or user a capability, um, or a product sometimes there’s this need to what I call shrink rapid. It means that if you’re dealing with a software solution, the software on its own doesn’t is not the product. The product has always other layers or pieces about around it that create the shrink wrap product. And so when we think about business agility, what we want to do is understand what it does, what it takes to really get that product into the hands of our customers and are, you know, are we doing software as a service? Does that mean there’s some training? Does that mean that we have to have, you know, user guides, you know, what are those other pieces of collateral? Are we going to do a marketing campaign around this? Are we going to do an email, you know, um, surge to certain customers who have, uh, are a certain segment of our market, um, are we going to actually, you know, put a product on the shelf? You know, so maybe you actually have a manufacturing, you know, agile team. So what all is engaged in that? And when we start to think about that, all teams can work in an agile way and how do you coordinate across the team so you get that shrink, wrapped product increment, so it can be delivered, and that is complex, but that’s traditionally the reality of, of a lot of individuals’ worlds in which they work. Um, it’s even the same. If your customer is an internal user. You still have to think about do I have to deliver training to somebody? Do I have to send them release notes? You know, so really thinking beyond just getting the software to done, that’s where it gets to be complex.

Dan Neumann: [18:50] Yeah. Yeah. Lots of moving parts, many different constituencies and different needs beyond just building and getting it running then. And, um, and then the question in order to be agile is how quickly can items get through that whole, that whole value chain and how do you accelerate that? And don’t just do the build and then chuck it over the wall to your training group, to, to start building their training. And they chuck it over the wall with a long roll out plan.

Andrea Floyd: [19:19] Right? So idea to value. And you’re looking to make that as short as a line as possible. And Stephen Denning in his book, age of agile came up with three laws of business agility. One is the law of the customer, which I think we’ve talked a good deal about, the other is the law, this small team. Again, what we do now is that there’s a certain size team, the certain size team with all the skills necessary to build a increment of a product. You want to make sure that they have our size that collaboration and communication and alignment is achievable. So the importance of creating that small team, but also empowering them appropriately creating that autonomy for that team to act on their own. Um, so the small team is an important concept, a con um, construct within business agility, and then the law of the network, which you were just hitting on. The law of the network is looking at how long it takes to get that idea to value or into the hands of the customer. And how do you organize and how do you organize your work and your people to shorten that? So you can get the speed to market. You know, you can get that quality item increment into the hands of the users as quickly as possible. And most importantly, start to get that feedback coming in.

Dan Neumann: [20:41] Yeah. And the feedback, otherwise, you’re placing a bet at that point and the feedback, you know, a guess upon a guess pretty soon, you, you can be very, very far off your mark.

Andrea Floyd: [20:54] True. And I think that, you know, an opportunity exists to have deeper conversations with some teams about how are they organizing to get that feedback. I see, um, many times teams focus on how we’re going to stand up our individual adjunct teams, whether they’re Scrum or Kanban, but they don’t spend as much time thinking through what are we going to do in terms of encouraging that voice of the customer to come in and get to our team or allowing our team to have access to our stakeholders and our customers. There are some, you know, some of the events within, you know, um, the agile frameworks support that, but what do you do broader than that? How do you help engage into your market into real customers? You know, so I think that, uh, an opportunity it’s sitting there for many teams is to have deeper conversations about how to get those feedback loops really set up so that they have them for not only into the market, into their customers, but into their own organization and get the voices from key SMEs or, or leaders or people who really understand, uh, the space in which they operate.

Dan Neumann: [22:07] Yeah. The, um, Oh, what’s the UX phrase. You is not the user in a lot of cases, right? And so people are using their own point of view, their own perspective, their own opinions to craft solutions. And the more you can engage actual users actually outside customers, um, as subject matter experts are good. Uh, but sometimes they’re still not the users. And so it’s really important to find ways to get those feedback loops, whether it’s kind of human to human feedback loops, where we are taking unfinished product to let’s say, a focus group and saying, Hey, here’s the thing. And watching how they interact with it. Um, or whether it’s, it’s instrumenting the code so that when people are engaging with the product, some of the metrics are being gathered. Some use statistics are gathered and can be analyzed for actual human behavior, but yeah. Got to find a way for that feedback. Yeah.

Andrea Floyd: [23:03] Absolutely. One thing that just came to mind is, uh, design thinking techniques. You know, those are a great way to learn more about your customer or users. So things such as personas, you know, helping to look at the different type of users or customers that might be using your products and services and thinking about what motivates them, what’s important to them and using that to help create that voice for the, the folks that are going to be delivering those, um, pieces of value, as well as again, the customer journey mapping is another design thinking technique and understanding what it feels like from your customer’s position to interact with you, your solutions, your products, your services, you as a company, and using that to really, again, empathy is huge. And so if I can start to create an understanding, then I can operate, I have an opportunity to create empathy and from empathy, I think you get a lot of innovation and creativity.

Dan Neumann: [24:10] Oh, that’s interesting. And it was just kind of the flashy moment. Like there’s a lot going on, at least in the United States with, with, um, civil unrest protests, et cetera, police, et cetera, et cetera. Um, and I was just kind of thinking there’s a lot of, Oh, we should do this or we should do that. And it really, I got to thinking just now, then how might design thinking fit into that? How might empathy for the individuals involved in, in these various interactions that go sideways really fast, like what’s happening? How do you make those better? And, you know, not to make it, not, not a political statement in any way, but the kind of exploring the interactions as a way to illuminate some new possibilities, as opposed to just, you know, digging the trenches and, and, and, you know, taking shots at the other side, for them having a perspective that’s different.

Andrea Floyd: [25:01] And the power of taking that step back and seeing it from that perspective, trying to understand it from that perspective, that’s where the beautiful aha moments come from. And once you start to experience that, I think you’re moving to a true state of empathy, empathy, and openness, so that you, again, whether it’s, uh, in real life or within your organization, as you start to want to help, you know, you want to find a way to move forward. You want to find a way to solve a problem. So you want to be part of the solution. And I, you know, that just is so important. You know, customer centricity is typically at the heart of, or in my opinion should be at, at the top of mind when you’re thinking about what we do as an organization, and it really should drive, um, every aspect, what is this going to bring to our customers? How is this going to make our customers feel, um, are we going to attract more customers and really, uh, adopting that customer centric, uh, type thinking married with some design thinking starts to radiate out across the organization. And I think, you know, as you start to see those, uh, tendrils, you know, tentacles, I guess, uh, moving out, uh, you start to see people coming together and that’s that shift that you’re hoping to see.

Dan Neumann: [26:36] They’re taking time to explore agile and how it’s not just about IT. You know, we touched on some of challenges with just staying in IT. And then, um, you were saying that modern agile, which Joshua Kerievsky’s framework that he’d introduced resonated really strongly with some folks and help them, uh, take it outside of IT. And then, um, we talked about collaboration and feedback loops and really be customer centric and using some of the design thinking techniques as a, as a, as a method then for getting outside of just the, kind of the, the IT blinders and just looking right at IT. So thank you for taking time to explore that.

Andrea Floyd: [27:16] Well, I love this topic and I appreciate you inviting me in Dan. So looking forward to next time.

Dan Neumann: [27:21] Of course, anytime, anytime. And then, um, we we’ve had this tradition now, I guess we’re in 80 episode, 80 something at this point. And, uh, at some point maybe we’ll go back and consolidate the booklets, but what are you, what are you reading these days, Andrea?

Andrea Floyd: [27:35] Well, you know, I’ve taken a little vacation in my mind. I’m, I’m now doing some light reading as I call it, but I felt that this book was very appropriate for days of COVID. It’s a book titled shelter in place by Nora Roberts. So just a little light reading.

Dan Neumann: [27:55] You never know where inspiration will come from.

Andrea Floyd: [27:58] Exactly. Even the title caught me, I think it’s from, from being inside so much these days.

Dan Neumann: [28:05] That’s pretty awesome. Um, is it a mystery of sorts?

Andrea Floyd: [28:10] Yes.

Dan Neumann: [28:10] Okay. See, my wife reads mysteries and I’m pretty sure it’s, what’s, what’s the, what’s the phrase where, um, once you’ve eliminated all the things that can’t work, all you’re left with is what the solution, something like that. Right. I think she’s trying to figure out how to get away with murder because she’s eliminated. They always get caught. Right. And so if I ever go missing, that’ll be why, she’s figured it out and no jury would ever convict her of it either. So yeah. So mine, um, I stumbled across the audio book, um, the decision by Kevin Hart, which is funny to call it an audio book. Cause there’s no book that goes with the audio. Uh, but it’s, uh, something like overcoming today’s BS for tomorrow’s success, which is kind of yeah. It’s interesting that Kevin Hart’s gone all motivational speaker, but uh, yeah, it’s a special kind of motivation. The actor/slash comedian. Oh yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, it’s interesting. So, um, well, I don’t think there’s been anything profound in there, but it’s, it’s funny to hear a profanity laced comedian talking about, um, you know, personal empowerment. And so if you’re looking for that kind of thing, not a bad listen. Okay. Well, thanks for joining today, Andrea. I really appreciate it.

Outro: [29:41] This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the hosts and the guests, and do not necessarily represent those of AgileThought. Get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at

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