Podcast Ep. 168: Ways of Helping Agile Practices to Take Root and Thrive with Andrea Floyd

Episode Description:

This week, Dan Neumann is joined by two of his AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd and Adam Ulery.

In this episode, Dan, Andrea, and Adam are answering a listener’s question who is just entering the role of a Scrum Master, in the organization he works for, and realized that it’s going through the consequences of a lack of the application of the ADKAR model. This listener asks for help in order to prevent his team from completely crashing and burning with the adoption of the SAFe methodology tasked by the leadership.

Key Takeaways

A SAFe Scaled Agile Framework

When looking for a safe way to scale, visit Scaled Agile Framework where you can find lots of information and an implementation road map for different organizations to implement
Change will affect everyone on the team
Training is necessary for all individuals to understand how change is going to impact them
SAFe is a framework; there are other tools to complement it
Look for opportunities to create organic learning groups

What is the tiebreaker between the roles of a Scrum Master, Product Owner, and Engineering?

Engage the community to have a collaborative conversation about what will make the best impact for the desired outcome
Who has the tiebreaker? That depends on the topic of the change involved, it could be the Scrum Master or the Product owner
The Scrum Master needs to help in guiding the practices and the processes around Scrum
It is crucial to have working agreements and an explicit understanding of who is responsible for what domain and area
To script the opening move is one strategy to making changes
Understanding accountabilities for each role is key for a successful change

Is there a change management plan template or some best practices to show the “why” for the process? How do you make people want to change?

Create excitement by helping people understand how the change benefits them and why change is happening
The implementation roadmap at Scaled Agile Framework is a very useful resource, all needed modifications can be done to fit your organization’s needs
Visit LACE to learn how to create a Lean-Agile Center of Excellence

Tips for change agents to help them build some transparency:

Always come from a place of humbleness and curiosity in the way you are approaching change
Empathy is a needed skill when confronting change
When you first start something, it always feels a little chaotic and the normal human reaction is to go back to what is familiar; use empathy to understand this feeling; just be human

Mentioned in this Episode:

Transcript [This transcript is auto-generated and may not be completely accurate in its depiction of the English language or rules of grammar.]

Intro:[00:03] Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought the podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now, here’s your host, coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann:[00:17] Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host, Dan Neumann. And today joined by two of my AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd, and Adam Ulery. How are you folks doing today?

Andrea Floyd: [00:28] Doing great, Dan, thanks for inviting us in today.

Adam Ulery:[00:32] Awesome, excited to be here.

Dan Neumann:[00:33] I heard it in your voices. I could tell. See, I have to go to acting class to have dynamic speaking and you guys just brought it naturally. It’s kind of fun. So, today we have a question from a listener in Michigan named Forrest, and Forrest writes us and says “I’m an experienced Senior Project Manager now entering the role of a Scrum Master in the organization. There’s not been a change management initiative stood up for the analysts, the developers, and now, I’m dealing with the lack of the ADKAR process handling concerns from the newly formed team.” And just for folks, I’m going to interject here a little bit. Adam and I talked about ADKAR around the Christmas and new year’s episodes here just three weeks ago. And so, Forrest continues “So, now I’m faced with chasing down two things, three things to help not have my team completely crash and burn with the adoption of the SAFe methodology tasked by our leadership.” So, Hey, I appreciate the transparency. So, Here are the three things Forrest continues with “What, if any, is a source of truth for concepts and best practices that I can refer to and point my team to. Next, who’s the tiebreaker between the Scrum Master, the product owner and the release train engineer? And then third, is there a change management process template or some best practice manual for deploying SAFe to IT teams? In my case, really needing to show the team the why of the process and create the desire part of the ADKAR process. Thanks.” So Forrest, thanks a ton for writing us, we invite people to email the podcast with questions and I love it. We got it. And I got two smart people here and they’re going help unpack all this. So let’s start at the top. And maybe Andrea, the first question is source of truth for concepts that are being referred to. What would you say?

Andrea Floyd:[02:29] Well, since Forrest is referring to SAFe Scaled Agile Framework as his framework that they’ve adopted, I would encourage the listeners and Forrest to go to the scaledagileframework.com website. There is a host of information in particular. I would point you to something called the implementation roadmap. There you’ll see a visual that shows you a journey map that is a possibility for different organizations as they’re embarking on their SAFe journey. And at the start of that implementation roadmap, there is reference to the Lean Agile Center of Excellence or SAFe excuse me, LACE. And this is a great resource and body of information around how to stand up Agile Center of Excellence. And it’s you can see it’s at the start of your journey and here, they have concepts as Change Agents. And as you talk about ADKAR, that’s understanding that change is going to impact all the people on this train, this group of people who are going to be working together. Getting some Change Agents to help frame the change, help guide the change, help communicate the changes, really a great way to get the journey started. And so again, as a resource point, you should see the implementation roadmap there, you can also see up in the early stages there’s training and there’s probably some great training to help people get a better understanding and set some expectations on what do we mean by SAFe and how is it going to impact them as an individual? So, that’s where I’d started off. Again every journey’s different. So, some organizations may jump into different parts of the roadmap, but it’s always great to set expectations around what’s going to be happening and get alignment there first.

Dan Neumann:[04:29] Wonderful. Thanks, Andrea. And you touched on a number of facets there from the roadmap and the Lean Agile Center of Excellence. Adam, I guess maybe I would ask what might you add there?

Adam Ulery:[04:42] Yeah, I agree with what Andrea was saying and in terms of a resource that SAFe website has so much in it that I’ve found valuable as a reference and to start pointing the team to, and then pretty soon you’ll want to start to look for resources around the type of framework or process the individual delivery teams are going to be using as well. So folks can start to get familiar with that. I knowwe always point people directly to the Scrum guide. A lot of times we’ll have folks ask us, “Hey, what’s a resource I can check out for Scrum.” And it’s always, start with the Scrum guide, get really intimate with that if you’re doing Kanban, find a core resource there, like David Anderson’s Blue Kanban book, for example, and go right to the source on those. Andthat’ll gets you off to good kind of solid foundation.

Dan Neumann:[05:45] Yeah, that’s a good point. And I will make sure we put some links to these things in the show notes at agilethought.com/podcast. Yeah, Andrea.

Andrea Floyd:[05:54] I was just going to add in. I wanted to remind Forrest and people who are SAFe practitioners or are using the SAFe framework. Remember that SAFe is a framework and there’s a bunch of different complimentary practices available that you can supplement some of the SAFe artifacts and practices with. So, when I think about change management, I always find that a communication plan, how are we going to connect with and be transparent and help inform individuals? That’s a great add on. The other thing is as you start your SAFe journey, maybe there’s an opportunity as a train to come together and do a working agreement. Again, you want to do a pulse check early on, on how are you going to people up and aligned on this big impactful change and what it means to them personally. So, look at some of those complimentary practices.

Dan Neumann:[06:46] And that’s one of the things I like about it. But the Scrum framework, super lightweight, there’s lots of complimentary practices that can be brought in. Kanban at some point we should probably do a topic about Kanban too. I still tend to think of Kanban as start where you are, visualize your work in process, measure manage flow, make policies explicit and improve experimentally. David Anderson kind of turned that innah, I think you over complexified it, but what do I know? That’s just Dan’s personal opinion, which is kind of what you get sometimes on here. So we’ll point to the Blue book that you mentioned in the show notes, Adam, and then probably something that I think of some of the earlier, if you well, thinking around Kanban there was, I feel, a little lighter weight around that topic. So lots of good stuff there, but definitely the SAFe website, the big picture. You can click on all that stuff. Safes a little while ago, maybe a couple years now, finally allowed you to copy and paste content from their website. They were so territorial on the IP, you couldn’t copy anything off it. So, you know, you can grab a description or a phrase and you can share that with your colleagues. I do like some of the changes that have emerged there, right? Anything to add before we shift to the other questions?

Adam Ulery:[08:02] There is one thing I’d like to share. And this is sort of foundational to any big change initiative in an organization and in ways to kind of help people get excited about it and a little less anxious about it. And that’s to look for opportunities to create little organic learning groups, like a brown bag coffee session or once a week coffee meeting in the cafeteria, or if you’re still remote, just hop on a zoom call or something and look for ways, that this is informal, right? This is a group of practitioners or people who are really questioning these things to get together and do life together, like figure it out maybe someone brings a laptop with a resource and you guys all sort of wrestle through it together on a regular basis. And that sort of thing can turn a scary or anxious feeling about the unknown into something more exciting where we’re starting to learn this together. And that is infectious as is the reinverse of that.

Andrea Floyd:[09:15] Yes. And I’ll just add on. That’s exactly what I would hope that people would think of as you’re building out, maybe a communication plan. What channels do we want to use? Formal? Informal? And that it’s not a one and done right? That it’s hopefully there’s a cadence of connectivity throughout the journey. So I love those ideas, Adam, and I think a great way to make you start to brainstorm. What else could we be doing to memorialize it in a communication plan that could be a living document that changes as you learn more.

Dan Neumann:[09:47] Perfect. Thank you both for putting a little bow on that topic. Let’s slide down to Forrest second question. And that was getting into, they phrased it as the tiebreaker between some of these roles, Scrum Master, Product Owner, Release Train Engineer. Let’s unpack that a little bit. So one of the things Andrea, you pointed out as we were kind of prepping for this was, there’s some different levels involved here, some different roles, and maybe you wanna start sharing some of your exploration on that. Andrea Floyd: [10:18] Certainly. So, when you’re coming together for SAFe, right? It’s about multiple teams who are working on a common product or solution that need to work together to deliver the ultimate, integrated solution. And so there is, what I refer to as a program level body of people, and that’s made up roles called the Release Train Engineer. You have the product management and you have the Systems Engineer or Systems Architect. Those are sort of the three legs of the very important stool that guides the train and that train is the grouping of multiple teams working together. So, I would encourage you to engage that community because they should be setting the direction for the overarching train, and they should have a collaborative conversation about what will make the best impact for the desired outcome for the train through that collaboration. That’s, again, another opportunity, maybe there’s a working agreement to actually have a focus conversation about when we get to a point who has the type breaking vote. And maybe it depends on what the context of that vote is around. If it’s around architecture, it might make sense for the systems architect, if it’s around the product, probably the product manager, if it’s about the practice and the process of SAFe and how that impacts the overall train, that’s more likely going to be your Release Train Engineer. Remember similar to Scrum, the RTE is in a similar role as a Scrum Mastes as Servant Leader to the train. They’re there to help reinforcing guide around the practices, principles and the framework of SAFe. So that’s a great starting point to maybe engage them. That would be at the train or the program level. Then, if it’s questioned down at the team level with the Scrum

Adam Ulery:[12:37] Yeah, I was going to say, I think you really nailed it there. And how to look at these types of issues across different teams where there are going to be multiple representatives on the team. It is a different way of operating and where we’re like, well, in the old way, there was one clear tie breaker, but now, this is kind of new to us. So, who breaks the tie here? And the way we’re looking at it is as you eloquently described somewhat dependent on the topic, on the area in which the question sort of stems from if you will. But that having those working agreements and having an explicit understanding of who is responsible for what domain and what area. I think that is really important. That can help any team a lot when they’re sort of struggling with where the boundaries of one role end and another begins. And it’s not always an exact science either. Sometimes, you have to kind of figure that out and maybe even update the agreement and update expectations as you start to figure it out together. And any Agileists will tell you, that’s great, that’s not a problem, this isn’t law where no, it must always be this way, right? So I think that’s another thing that, especially when it’s new to you and you’re learning how to work in this new way, it’s important to keep in mind, Hey, we’re gonna bump up against things that we didn’t expect. We don’t know what to do with. No problem, let’s figure that out and let’s just get to a shared agreement. So we’re all aligned on how we’ll move forward and then let’s pay attention to how well that’s working for us. Remember, this process and these frameworks and all of this stuff is meant to serve us. So let’s pay attention to how well it is serving us, how effective it’s making us and make little changes in adjustments along the way as we go to always just keep getting better and better at it.

Speaker 1:[14:45] Have a topic you want us to tackle? Send an email to podcast@agilethought.com or tweet it with a #agilethoughtpodcast.

Dan Newman:[14:56] I got to thinking about what you were describing and maybe we’ll unpack it a little more in the change management part. But I believe it was in Chip and Dan Heath’s book called switch. It was about making changes. One of the strategies for making changes is to script the opening move. You make it easy, less cognitively heavy for the start. And one of the ways that applies to the roles and the agreements is look okay, here’s what the RTS responsible for or accountable for, here’s the product manager, here is system architect, product owner, Scrum Master, et cetera. Yeah, there’ll be things that are gray in the middle, but start by getting kind of crisp. Okay, Product backlog ordering that goes to this role, input on technology solutions that comes from here, make sure you’re consulting them, you make it a less scary change when you’re able to script some of those opening moves and kind of point people in the right direction.

Andrea Floyd:[15:52] To add onto that, Dan. You and I just did a podcast, and one of the things we looked at is how do you tune up your agile journey, whether you’re at the start of it, or in the middle of it, or long into it. And one of the things to take a look at is ensuring an understanding of accountabilities for the different role. So as a person, as a member of an agile release train, I know what my general responsibilities, and again, to cite both the SAFe scaled agile framework has a list of accountabilities for all the roles. And then we also can leverage the Scrum Guide that does the same for Scrum, but this is where you use it as a starter, right? And then you add into what makes sense for your teams, for your organization. But at least, you start to think about how do we care for different scenarios as they arise during our time together.

Dan Neumann:[16:50] For sure. So episode 168. That was the one immediately prior to this episode. So that’s an easy one for folks to go back and find, for sure. Well, we started to stick our toes in the change management waters, so let’s keep going down that path. And let me just repeat Forrest’s question, is there a change management plan template, or some best practices and then really show the why for the process and make the desire. So. ADKAR awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, reinforcement, that’s what the ADKAR stands for. And how do you make people actually want to change? So, Adam, would you like to be the lead off hitter on this topic?

Adam Ulery:[17:28] I love the challenge of how do you make people really want change. And I like the desire component of this, and for me, it’s about creating excitement and also removing those things that would dampen excitement or cause fear and ultimately, that’s going to cause resistance and things like that. And a lot of it is helping people understand how it benefits them and why we’re doing this, right? So, I mean, a lot of times I will see when there isn’t excitement or when there is resistance or fear or anxiety, there’s some underlying unmet need to know how is this gonna benefit me? Like, why are we doing this? And why does it matter to me? Because I know the thing I was doing, I’m at least familiar with that. So, it’s getting in there and actually discovering that for folks who seem to be stumbling. And then for folks who are excited or trying to learn more, learning how you can kind of spread that feeling and that sentiment, those are some of the initial thoughts I have on it. Lots of ways to do that, which we can unpack.

Andrea Floyd: [18:58] Absolutely. And to answer more specifically the question from a SAFe perspective, are there artifacts and other things available. Again, if they don’t do anything lightweight they do have a wealth of great information and it’s really good. And again, I think we’ve been trying to encourage you to use it as a great resource, but make adaptions in it based on your organizational appetite and needs. So, as I mentioned earlier, the implementation roadmap will show you the Lean Agile Center of Excellence or refer to as LACE. Clicking on, that’s a great way to look at some of the material that SAFe provides around change management. One of the big things to talk about is change agents. And I know that we’ve used with a lot of our teams and clients something called agile transformation teams, where we’re looking for those champions, those advocates. So definitely take a look at LACE and change agents within that implementation roadmap as a great way to start your journey. There’s also great information in LACE around governance, which may be appropriate for caring for other needs as you go through your transformation. Dan Neumann: [20:18] Perfect. You touched on a couple things and we’ll figure out how to explore them. One of the behaviors that I think I’ve seen is some individuals will wear the mantle of change agent as a blank check to just be a major pain in the ass, right? And, the way they embrace the change agent role is abrasive and bothersome and I think unhelpful. So I’m curious if you were to think of change agents and building some of the excitement, Adam that you alluded to, and some of the why that we alluded to earlier. Any tips for our change agents out there and to how to build some transparency while not having people go, listen to that person again, like just, they need to stop talking. Adam Ulery: [21:02] I think when I see that, what you’re describing a lot of times, it’s someone who isn’t coming from a place of humbleness, right? Or it’s somebody who finds value in kind of being the expert or having some sort of power or authority to affect other people in some way. And if you can adopt this mindset of humble and curiosity in the way you’re approaching it, I think that helps a lot, just being curious and trying to discover things and trying to learn things together and figure it out. I think that helps.

Andrea Floyd:[21:53] To add onto that, I’d say also come from a place of empathy. So if you’re lucky enough to be identified, whether you call it a change agent, a change champion, understand what others are feeling, and that’s going to change as they go through the stages of change, right? And all I know is that when you first start something, it feels a little chaotic and it really creates this human nature reaction of wanting to go back to what’s comfortable, what I know, and that’s where it’s so essential as a person who’s trying to support and influence the changes to positive to find creative and supportive ways to move people through that change. And I think Adam, you said it, understanding what’s in it for each individual is so important. It helps with that empathy. It helps you come from a place of vulnerability and humility, that you really come from a caring way of connecting with these people. So I would encourage if you are tapped to be a change agent, really take the time, there’s so much great information out there available, but just be human. And remember when you went through something that was different and uncomfortable, what helped you feel comfort?

Dan Neumann:[23:16] Those are good tips. Related to the building awareness, although I’m not sure it builds comfort as I think of it. I’ve heard of the infamous burning platform email that, our business is in danger, or we simply cannot stay here. And the analogy is an oil rig in the ocean is literally on fire. You’ve got to get off of it. And the water’s probably going to be cold, and it’s a little scary, but you can’t stay here. You literally just can’t and being really clear on why the organization or why your team, or why somebody as an individual needs to move from their place of former comfort to a new place that might not be comfortable is good. And of course, yes, we want to be empathetic and try to build comfort where we are, but really make a compelling case for status quo is unacceptable going forward and we’re going to change and here’s how you’ll be supported. Look, there’s a boat down there in the water, but you got to jump. So, that type of thing.

Adam Ulery:[24:15] Yeah, that’s good, Dan. And there’s one other comment I’d like to make around this whole topic. And it’s kind of interesting to see it happen. Forrest and others going through this type of a change when you’re really early in the change, some of the biggest resistors or the loudest voices against will end up becoming your biggest champions. And it’s almost impossible to imagine that in the beginning, but a lot of times it’s actually engaging those people and those loud voices and really just helping them work through it and not necessarily trying to convert them, but listening to them and helping them find answers to their questions, because you they’ve got real reasons why they have issues. And you can both learn a lot from that, both as the champion and the person who wants to see the change continue to take effect. And if you’re the resistor, right? And then a lot of times, those people start to come around and once they realize the value of this and how much better it really will make your work life then they become the biggest champions.

Dan Neumann:[25:33] Andrea and Adam, I want to appreciate you folks for joining and especially, I want to thank Forrest for sending in the question and questions. We have three, which is awesome. It is like a 3, 4, 1. And I would ask Andrea, what kind of closing thoughts do you have on the topic of SAFe and change management that we explored today?

Andrea Floyd:[25:55] Well, I think as I’ve been listening to us have this conversation and reflecting back on Forrest’s questions one of the statements he shared in his question was, they were being tasked by leadership, and I believe that’s to undertake SAFe, right? And so it made me think to myself, the importance of leadership engagement, not just being asked to do something for the sake of doing something without understanding the why, which is what we’ve been just talking about. People naturally want to help, but if I don’t know what you’re trying to do and why you’re trying to do it, it’s hard for me to understand where I can contribute. And if I want to feel valued, help me see that and I will jump in with both feet. So I wanted to just do a shout out to our leaders to make sure that you’re thoroughly engaged in the change and that you’re helping to clarify the importance and the why behind it.

Adam Ulery:[26:54] I love it, Andrea, and you inspired another thought in me, which is as you’re going through this reminder peers and remind everyone that the leaders are learning as well, they’re in the same boat, they’re just in a different position in the org, and they’re going to get things wrong too. And we want them to have some grace with us when we get things wrong and turn those into learning opportunities. Same with the leadership, right? And so feel free to coach up that way and help them see those things. And leaders, it’s okay to make mistakes. We want you to be transparent about those so we can see you’re human too, that inspires us, and to know we can make mistakes as well. So that’s super Andrea, that you brought that up about leadership and then also for Forrest and for anyone who’s going through a new agile transformation. It’s your first time in, I just kind of want to encourage you that this is the way organizations work in the future, right? All organizations are digital organizations, now. As we move forward into the future, this is the bottom line of the way we’ll work, right? And, and so agile’s not new anymore is what I’m trying to say, but it will move into the future. And it’s the minimum of the new way of working in the digital future. So that’s exciting. You get to learn how to grow into that way of working. It’s going to actually help your career. It’s going to help your organization become more resilient and be able to move into the future. So if you look at it that way, there are lot of positive opportunities for you in the near future and everyone at your organization.

Dan Neumann:[28:52] Those are some great thoughts, Andrea and Adam. And it reminded me when I interview candidates, a lot of times, for positions at AgileThought, a lot of times they say, well, what do you like? And it’s, it’s exactly what I just saw here. Andrea, we had a topic, Andrea, you had some thoughts Adam’s like, yes. And that spurred this thought with me. And of course that makes me think new things. And so like, I’m like, yeah. That’s what’s different about being here than being an independent consultant with my own shingle out or just maybe in a different position where there isn’t that type of collaboration. So I appreciate both of you and that energy that we have. So this brings us to the part where I ask you guys, what’s on your continuous learning journey? And Andrea, you’re maybe thinking, you just literally asked me that last week. I’ll ask you again anyway, you can just pass it to Adam if it’s like the same thing as last week. Andrea Floyd: [29:45] Well, it is the same thing as last week, but I do want to do a shout out. I’m reading Shirzad Chamine’s book called Positive Intelligence, and I am heading into chapter nine. So I’m so engaged and energized to keep going on my PQ journey and applying it to what I do and how I relate to people.

Dan Neumann:[30:15] That’s awesome. Overachiever being on chapter nine, I’m on chapter two. What about you, Adam?

Adam Ulery:[30:24] Yeah, I’ve always got a couple of books going, but actually right now the books that I’m reading are around some other areas of life, like some spiritual areas of my life. So yeah, I’m not actually reading any agile-related books right now. But you know, I mean, I think I’ve always got a couple of things going there. These are just another areas of life.

Dan Neumann:[30:51] Yeah. All good. And you know, those other areas of life, I think continue to illuminate in different ways within what we do professional. Because let’s face it, we bring our personness to the work that we do. And for me, so I’ve mentioned in the past, I went to an acting class part of which was then to try out for a play. It turned out it was a musical. I had no idea. So I am now going through the experience for the very first time as somebody in his mid to late forties here of being in a musical. And so yeah, it’s interesting because you think of music as rehearsals, as collaboration, and very early on, it was like, yes, theater is collaborative. This rehearsal is a dictatorship. Like you are not here to coach the director, you are to be directed. So very clear roles and responsibilities and, and there’s some of those things that come through. I’m like, yeah, that totally makes sense. So I want to appreciate you guys, coming o and sharing your different items and we will be sure to have you both back on for repeat episodes in the near future. So thank you guys.

Andrea Floyd:[32:09] Thank you, Dan.

Outro: [32:13]This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and the guests, and do not necessarily to present those of AgileThought, get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

Speakers

Dan Neumann

Principal Enterprise Coach

Dan Neuman is the Director of the US Transformation and Coaching practice in the Agility guild. He coaches organizations to transform the way they work to achieve their desired business outcomes.

With more than 25 years of experience, Dan Neumann is an experienced Agile Coach with a deep knowledge of Agility at the team and organizational levels. He focuses on achieving business outcomes by shifting both mindset and practices, resulting in a disciplined, yet practical approach to solving problems.

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Podcast Ep. 168: Ways of Helping Agile Practices to Take Root and Thrive with Andrea Floyd

Intro:[00:03]

Welcome to Agile Coaches’ Corner by AgileThought the podcast for practitioners and leaders seeking advice to refine the way they work and pave the path to better outcomes. Now, here’s your host, coach and agile expert, Dan Neumann.

Dan Neumann:[00:17]

Welcome to this episode of the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast. I’m your host, Dan Neumann. And today joined by two of my AgileThought colleagues, Andrea Floyd, and Adam Ulery. How are you folks doing today?

Andrea Floyd: [00:28]

Doing great, Dan, thanks for inviting us in today.

Adam Ulery:[00:32]

Awesome, excited to be here.

Dan Neumann:[00:33]

I heard it in your voices. I could tell. See, I have to go to acting class to have dynamic speaking and you guys just brought it naturally. It’s kind of fun. So, today we have a question from a listener in Michigan named Forrest, and Forrest writes us and says “I’m an experienced Senior Project Manager now entering the role of a Scrum Master in the organization. There’s not been a change management initiative stood up for the analysts, the developers, and now, I’m dealing with the lack of the ADKAR process handling concerns from the newly formed team.” And just for folks, I’m going to interject here a little bit. Adam and I talked about ADKAR around the Christmas and new year’s episodes here just three weeks ago. And so, Forrest continues “So, now I’m faced with chasing down two things, three things to help not have my team completely crash and burn with the adoption of the SAFe methodology tasked by our leadership.” So, Hey, I appreciate the transparency. So, Here are the three things Forrest continues with “What, if any, is a source of truth for concepts and best practices that I can refer to and point my team to. Next, who’s the tiebreaker between the Scrum Master, the product owner and the release train engineer? And then third, is there a change management process template or some best practice manual for deploying SAFe to IT teams? In my case, really needing to show the team the why of the process and create the desire part of the ADKAR process. Thanks.” So Forrest, thanks a ton for writing us, we invite people to email the podcast with questions and I love it. We got it. And I got two smart people here and they’re going help unpack all this. So let’s start at the top. And maybe Andrea, the first question is source of truth for concepts that are being referred to. What would you say?

Andrea Floyd:[02:29]

Well, since Forrest is referring to SAFe Scaled Agile Framework as his framework that they’ve adopted, I would encourage the listeners and Forrest to go to the scaledagileframework.com website. There is a host of information in particular. I would point you to something called the implementation roadmap. There you’ll see a visual that shows you a journey map that is a possibility for different organizations as they’re embarking on their SAFe journey. And at the start of that implementation roadmap, there is reference to the Lean Agile Center of Excellence or SAFe excuse me, LACE. And this is a great resource and body of information around how to stand up Agile Center of Excellence. And it’s you can see it’s at the start of your journey and here, they have concepts as Change Agents. And as you talk about ADKAR, that’s understanding that change is going to impact all the people on this train, this group of people who are going to be working together. Getting some Change Agents to help frame the change, help guide the change, help communicate the changes, really a great way to get the journey started. And so again, as a resource point, you should see the implementation roadmap there, you can also see up in the early stages there’s training and there’s probably some great training to help people get a better understanding and set some expectations on what do we mean by SAFe and how is it going to impact them as an individual? So, that’s where I’d started off. Again every journey’s different. So, some organizations may jump into different parts of the roadmap, but it’s always great to set expectations around what’s going to be happening and get alignment there first.

Dan Neumann:[04:29]

Wonderful. Thanks, Andrea. And you touched on a number of facets there from the roadmap and the Lean Agile Center of Excellence. Adam, I guess maybe I would ask what might you add there?

Adam Ulery:[04:42]

Yeah, I agree with what Andrea was saying and in terms of a resource that SAFe website has so much in it that I’ve found valuable as a reference and to start pointing the team to, and then pretty soon you’ll want to start to look for resources around the type of framework or process the individual delivery teams are going to be using as well. So folks can start to get familiar with that. I knowwe always point people directly to the Scrum guide. A lot of times we’ll have folks ask us, “Hey, what’s a resource I can check out for Scrum.” And it’s always, start with the Scrum guide, get really intimate with that if you’re doing Kanban, find a core resource there, like David Anderson’s Blue Kanban book, for example, and go right to the source on those. Andthat’ll gets you off to good kind of solid foundation.

Dan Neumann:[05:45]

Yeah, that’s a good point. And I will make sure we put some links to these things in the show notes at agilethought.com/podcast. Yeah, Andrea.

Andrea Floyd:[05:54]

I was just going to add in. I wanted to remind Forrest and people who are SAFe practitioners or are using the SAFe framework. Remember that SAFe is a framework and there’s a bunch of different complimentary practices available that you can supplement some of the SAFe artifacts and practices with. So, when I think about change management, I always find that a communication plan, how are we going to connect with and be transparent and help inform individuals? That’s a great add on. The other thing is as you start your SAFe journey, maybe there’s an opportunity as a train to come together and do a working agreement. Again, you want to do a pulse check early on, on how are you going to people up and aligned on this big impactful change and what it means to them personally. So, look at some of those complimentary practices.

Dan Neumann:[06:46]

And that’s one of the things I like about it. But the Scrum framework, super lightweight, there’s lots of complimentary practices that can be brought in. Kanban at some point we should probably do a topic about Kanban too. I still tend to think of Kanban as start where you are, visualize your work in process, measure manage flow, make policies explicit and improve experimentally. David Anderson kind of turned that innah, I think you over complexified it, but what do I know? That’s just Dan’s personal opinion, which is kind of what you get sometimes on here. So we’ll point to the Blue book that you mentioned in the show notes, Adam, and then probably something that I think of some of the earlier, if you well, thinking around Kanban there was, I feel, a little lighter weight around that topic. So lots of good stuff there, but definitely the SAFe website, the big picture. You can click on all that stuff. Safes a little while ago, maybe a couple years now, finally allowed you to copy and paste content from their website. They were so territorial on the IP, you couldn’t copy anything off it. So, you know, you can grab a description or a phrase and you can share that with your colleagues. I do like some of the changes that have emerged there, right? Anything to add before we shift to the other questions?

Adam Ulery:[08:02]

There is one thing I’d like to share. And this is sort of foundational to any big change initiative in an organization and in ways to kind of help people get excited about it and a little less anxious about it. And that’s to look for opportunities to create little organic learning groups, like a brown bag coffee session or once a week coffee meeting in the cafeteria, or if you’re still remote, just hop on a zoom call or something and look for ways, that this is informal, right? This is a group of practitioners or people who are really questioning these things to get together and do life together, like figure it out maybe someone brings a laptop with a resource and you guys all sort of wrestle through it together on a regular basis. And that sort of thing can turn a scary or anxious feeling about the unknown into something more exciting where we’re starting to learn this together. And that is infectious as is the reinverse of that.

Andrea Floyd:[09:15]

Yes. And I’ll just add on. That’s exactly what I would hope that people would think of as you’re building out, maybe a communication plan. What channels do we want to use? Formal? Informal? And that it’s not a one and done right? That it’s hopefully there’s a cadence of connectivity throughout the journey. So I love those ideas, Adam, and I think a great way to make you start to brainstorm. What else could we be doing to memorialize it in a communication plan that could be a living document that changes as you learn more.

Dan Neumann:[09:47]

Perfect. Thank you both for putting a little bow on that topic. Let’s slide down to Forrest second question. And that was getting into, they phrased it as the tiebreaker between some of these roles, Scrum Master, Product Owner, Release Train Engineer. Let’s unpack that a little bit. So one of the things Andrea, you pointed out as we were kind of prepping for this was, there’s some different levels involved here, some different roles, and maybe you wanna start sharing some of your exploration on that. Andrea Floyd: [10:18

Adam Ulery:[12:37]

Yeah, I was going to say, I think you really nailed it there. And how to look at these types of issues across different teams where there are going to be multiple representatives on the team. It is a different way of operating and where we’re like, well, in the old way, there was one clear tie breaker, but now, this is kind of new to us. So, who breaks the tie here? And the way we’re looking at it is as you eloquently described somewhat dependent on the topic, on the area in which the question sort of stems from if you will. But that having those working agreements and having an explicit understanding of who is responsible for what domain and what area. I think that is really important. That can help any team a lot when they’re sort of struggling with where the boundaries of one role end and another begins. And it’s not always an exact science either. Sometimes, you have to kind of figure that out and maybe even update the agreement and update expectations as you start to figure it out together. And any Agileists will tell you, that’s great, that’s not a problem, this isn’t law where no, it must always be this way, right? So I think that’s another thing that, especially when it’s new to you and you’re learning how to work in this new way, it’s important to keep in mind, Hey, we’re gonna bump up against things that we didn’t expect. We don’t know what to do with. No problem, let’s figure that out and let’s just get to a shared agreement. So we’re all aligned on how we’ll move forward and then let’s pay attention to how well that’s working for us. Remember, this process and these frameworks and all of this stuff is meant to serve us. So let’s pay attention to how well it is serving us, how effective it’s making us and make little changes in adjustments along the way as we go to always just keep getting better and better at it.

Speaker 1:[14:45]

Have a topic you want us to tackle? Send an email to podcast@agilethought.com or tweet it with a #agilethoughtpodcast.

Dan Newman:[14:56]

I got to thinking about what you were describing and maybe we’ll unpack it a little more in the change management part. But I believe it was in Chip and Dan Heath’s book called switch. It was about making changes. One of the strategies for making changes is to script the opening move. You make it easy, less cognitively heavy for the start. And one of the ways that applies to the roles and the agreements is look okay, here’s what the RTS responsible for or accountable for, here’s the product manager, here is system architect, product owner, Scrum Master, et cetera. Yeah, there’ll be things that are gray in the middle, but start by getting kind of crisp. Okay, Product backlog ordering that goes to this role, input on technology solutions that comes from here, make sure you’re consulting them, you make it a less scary change when you’re able to script some of those opening moves and kind of point people in the right direction.

Andrea Floyd:[15:52]

To add onto that, Dan. You and I just did a podcast, and one of the things we looked at is how do you tune up your agile journey, whether you’re at the start of it, or in the middle of it, or long into it. And one of the things to take a look at is ensuring an understanding of accountabilities for the different role. So as a person, as a member of an agile release train, I know what my general responsibilities, and again, to cite both the SAFe scaled agile framework has a list of accountabilities for all the roles. And then we also can leverage the Scrum Guide that does the same for Scrum, but this is where you use it as a starter, right? And then you add into what makes sense for your teams, for your organization. But at least, you start to think about how do we care for different scenarios as they arise during our time together.

Dan Neumann:[16:50]

For sure. So episode 168. That was the one immediately prior to this episode. So that’s an easy one for folks to go back and find, for sure. Well, we started to stick our toes in the change management waters, so let’s keep going down that path. And let me just repeat Forrest’s question, is there a change management plan template, or some best practices and then really show the why for the process and make the desire. So. ADKAR awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, reinforcement, that’s what the ADKAR stands for. And how do you make people actually want to change? So, Adam, would you like to be the lead off hitter on this topic?

Adam Ulery:[17:28]

I love the challenge of how do you make people really want change. And I like the desire component of this, and for me, it’s about creating excitement and also removing those things that would dampen excitement or cause fear and ultimately, that’s going to cause resistance and things like that. And a lot of it is helping people understand how it benefits them and why we’re doing this, right? So, I mean, a lot of times I will see when there isn’t excitement or when there is resistance or fear or anxiety, there’s some underlying unmet need to know how is this gonna benefit me? Like, why are we doing this? And why does it matter to me? Because I know the thing I was doing, I’m at least familiar with that. So, it’s getting in there and actually discovering that for folks who seem to be stumbling. And then for folks who are excited or trying to learn more, learning how you can kind of spread that feeling and that sentiment, those are some of the initial thoughts I have on it. Lots of ways to do that, which we can unpack.

Andrea Floyd: [18:58]

Absolutely. And to answer more specifically the question from a SAFe perspective, are there artifacts and other things available. Again, if they don’t do anything lightweight they do have a wealth of great information and it’s really good. And again, I think we’ve been trying to encourage you to use it as a great resource, but make adaptions in it based on your organizational appetite and needs. So, as I mentioned earlier, the implementation roadmap will show you the Lean Agile Center of Excellence or refer to as LACE. Clicking on, that’s a great way to look at some of the material that SAFe provides around change management. One of the big things to talk about is change agents. And I know that we’ve used with a lot of our teams and clients something called agile transformation teams, where we’re looking for those champions, those advocates. So definitely take a look at LACE and change agents within that implementation roadmap as a great way to start your journey. There’s also great information in LACE around governance, which may be appropriate for caring for other needs as you go through your transformation. Dan Neumann: [20:18

Andrea Floyd:[21:53]

To add onto that, I’d say also come from a place of empathy. So if you’re lucky enough to be identified, whether you call it a change agent, a change champion, understand what others are feeling, and that’s going to change as they go through the stages of change, right? And all I know is that when you first start something, it feels a little chaotic and it really creates this human nature reaction of wanting to go back to what’s comfortable, what I know, and that’s where it’s so essential as a person who’s trying to support and influence the changes to positive to find creative and supportive ways to move people through that change. And I think Adam, you said it, understanding what’s in it for each individual is so important. It helps with that empathy. It helps you come from a place of vulnerability and humility, that you really come from a caring way of connecting with these people. So I would encourage if you are tapped to be a change agent, really take the time, there’s so much great information out there available, but just be human. And remember when you went through something that was different and uncomfortable, what helped you feel comfort?

Dan Neumann:[23:16]

Those are good tips. Related to the building awareness, although I’m not sure it builds comfort as I think of it. I’ve heard of the infamous burning platform email that, our business is in danger, or we simply cannot stay here. And the analogy is an oil rig in the ocean is literally on fire. You’ve got to get off of it. And the water’s probably going to be cold, and it’s a little scary, but you can’t stay here. You literally just can’t and being really clear on why the organization or why your team, or why somebody as an individual needs to move from their place of former comfort to a new place that might not be comfortable is good. And of course, yes, we want to be empathetic and try to build comfort where we are, but really make a compelling case for status quo is unacceptable going forward and we’re going to change and here’s how you’ll be supported. Look, there’s a boat down there in the water, but you got to jump. So, that type of thing.

Adam Ulery:[24:15]

Yeah, that’s good, Dan. And there’s one other comment I’d like to make around this whole topic. And it’s kind of interesting to see it happen. Forrest and others going through this type of a change when you’re really early in the change, some of the biggest resistors or the loudest voices against will end up becoming your biggest champions. And it’s almost impossible to imagine that in the beginning, but a lot of times it’s actually engaging those people and those loud voices and really just helping them work through it and not necessarily trying to convert them, but listening to them and helping them find answers to their questions, because you they’ve got real reasons why they have issues. And you can both learn a lot from that, both as the champion and the person who wants to see the change continue to take effect. And if you’re the resistor, right? And then a lot of times, those people start to come around and once they realize the value of this and how much better it really will make your work life then they become the biggest champions.

Dan Neumann:[25:33]

Andrea and Adam, I want to appreciate you folks for joining and especially, I want to thank Forrest for sending in the question and questions. We have three, which is awesome. It is like a 3, 4, 1. And I would ask Andrea, what kind of closing thoughts do you have on the topic of SAFe and change management that we explored today?

Andrea Floyd:[25:55]

Well, I think as I’ve been listening to us have this conversation and reflecting back on Forrest’s questions one of the statements he shared in his question was, they were being tasked by leadership, and I believe that’s to undertake SAFe, right? And so it made me think to myself, the importance of leadership engagement, not just being asked to do something for the sake of doing something without understanding the why, which is what we’ve been just talking about. People naturally want to help, but if I don’t know what you’re trying to do and why you’re trying to do it, it’s hard for me to understand where I can contribute. And if I want to feel valued, help me see that and I will jump in with both feet. So I wanted to just do a shout out to our leaders to make sure that you’re thoroughly engaged in the change and that you’re helping to clarify the importance and the why behind it.

Adam Ulery:[26:54]

I love it, Andrea, and you inspired another thought in me, which is as you’re going through this reminder peers and remind everyone that the leaders are learning as well, they’re in the same boat, they’re just in a different position in the org, and they’re going to get things wrong too. And we want them to have some grace with us when we get things wrong and turn those into learning opportunities. Same with the leadership, right? And so feel free to coach up that way and help them see those things. And leaders, it’s okay to make mistakes. We want you to be transparent about those so we can see you’re human too, that inspires us, and to know we can make mistakes as well. So that’s super Andrea, that you brought that up about leadership and then also for Forrest and for anyone who’s going through a new agile transformation. It’s your first time in, I just kind of want to encourage you that this is the way organizations work in the future, right? All organizations are digital organizations, now. As we move forward into the future, this is the bottom line of the way we’ll work, right? And, and so agile’s not new anymore is what I’m trying to say, but it will move into the future. And it’s the minimum of the new way of working in the digital future. So that’s exciting. You get to learn how to grow into that way of working. It’s going to actually help your career. It’s going to help your organization become more resilient and be able to move into the future. So if you look at it that way, there are lot of positive opportunities for you in the near future and everyone at your organization.

Dan Neumann:[28:52]

Those are some great thoughts, Andrea and Adam. And it reminded me when I interview candidates, a lot of times, for positions at AgileThought, a lot of times they say, well, what do you like? And it’s, it’s exactly what I just saw here. Andrea, we had a topic, Andrea, you had some thoughts Adam’s like, yes. And that spurred this thought with me. And of course that makes me think new things. And so like, I’m like, yeah. That’s what’s different about being here than being an independent consultant with my own shingle out or just maybe in a different position where there isn’t that type of collaboration. So I appreciate both of you and that energy that we have. So this brings us to the part where I ask you guys, what’s on your continuous learning journey? And Andrea, you’re maybe thinking, you just literally asked me that last week. I’ll ask you again anyway, you can just pass it to Adam if it’s like the same thing as last week. Andrea Floyd: [29:45

Dan Neumann:[30:15]

That’s awesome. Overachiever being on chapter nine, I’m on chapter two. What about you, Adam?

Adam Ulery:[30:24]

Yeah, I’ve always got a couple of books going, but actually right now the books that I’m reading are around some other areas of life, like some spiritual areas of my life. So yeah, I’m not actually reading any agile-related books right now. But you know, I mean, I think I’ve always got a couple of things going there. These are just another areas of life.

Dan Neumann:[30:51]

Yeah. All good. And you know, those other areas of life, I think continue to illuminate in different ways within what we do professional. Because let’s face it, we bring our personness to the work that we do. And for me, so I’ve mentioned in the past, I went to an acting class part of which was then to try out for a play. It turned out it was a musical. I had no idea. So I am now going through the experience for the very first time as somebody in his mid to late forties here of being in a musical. And so yeah, it’s interesting because you think of music as rehearsals, as collaboration, and very early on, it was like, yes, theater is collaborative. This rehearsal is a dictatorship. Like you are not here to coach the director, you are to be directed. So very clear roles and responsibilities and, and there’s some of those things that come through. I’m like, yeah, that totally makes sense. So I want to appreciate you guys, coming o and sharing your different items and we will be sure to have you both back on for repeat episodes in the near future. So thank you guys.

Andrea Floyd:[32:09]

Thank you, Dan.

Outro: [32:13]

This has been the Agile Coaches’ Corner podcast brought to you by AgileThought. The views, opinions and information expressed in this podcast are solely those of the host and the guests, and do not necessarily to present those of AgileThought, get the show notes and other helpful tips for this episode and other episodes at agilethought.com/podcast.

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